Feel like I've hit a wall.

Discussion in 'STT General Discussion' started by KBikeJim, Jul 17, 2017.

  1. KBikeJim

    KBikeJim Rides with no training wheels

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    Great response! Thanks.
     
  2. KBikeJim

    KBikeJim Rides with no training wheels

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    On body position...I know I don't get off the bike that much. I try to get one cheek off, and wind up with maybe a half cheek. I set up before any other inputs, IE down shift, brake, etc. I try to be smooth. As a soon to be 52yo that needs to lose some weight...I probably will never get off a whole lot, and damn sure not as much as Jason! Worked an entire session at CSS on side to side transition, and was told I was doing it fairly well. I know to try and make sure I'm shifting side to side, and not rotating around the tank, but I'm sure when fatigue sets in, my form suffers. My goal is to try and point my crotch and chest at the apex. GOAL...working on making this second nature...when I first started back riding 5 years ago, I was counterleaning naturally, so, I'm making good progress on that IMO.

    Really appreciate all the nice responses here. Good info and coaching.
     
  3. TLR67

    TLR67 Cheers!
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    Just make sure you are NEVER sitting in the middle of the seat ever.... Only 2 exceptions in my opinion is back stretch at Road Atlanta and 2 straights at Road America... Stay off to the left or the right to prevent more work on the bikes suspension pre APEX... Then simply focus on Braking shifting, aiming and powering out.
     
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  4. bigshow

    bigshow Rides with no training wheels

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    All the above advice is spot on, the only thing I would add is to not pressure yourself too much, especially after 8 days on track. frankly, you could spend a lifetime learning this unless you are marquez or rossi :) . I would also suggest that you only focus on a couple key items for a given day and just work on keys like:

    1. getting your ass of the middle of the seat and set your body for each corner well before you go in. getting the easy work done early just slows everything down and you are not over working when you are braking and downshifting as you set up for a corner. Somebody once mentioned to me "look GP to ride GP". Get yourself so far off the side of the bike that you think you look like marquez. Once you get off the bike properly you wont need to worry about tires in your mind. They always hold, unless we screw it up :)
    2. think about where your feet are on the pegs so you are not needing to adjust as you set up for the corner.
    3. move your vision up and out, that was the biggest item for me. you mentioned above you were focusing on that so thats cool. The only way you can get faster is by slowing down whats happening in your brain and the perceived speed.
    4. break the track down to hit entry and apex and exit for a couple corners, session by session, until you get your line down. have a coach drag you one one on one as they guys said. then just rinse and repeat.
    5. remember that almost everyone of us feels like we are hitting a wall on this. I will be riding tomorrow and Friday and I guarantee I will get rolled by some guys that make me wonder what the hell I am doing!

    Anyway, have fun and it will all come to you. Just keep it simple and work step by step.

    Good luck.
     
  5. tnskydivr

    tnskydivr Shut up and Jump!
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    I saw you out there, you were doing fine for the short time you've been trackriding. Some of this stuff doesn't happen overnight, and people learn at different speeds than others. 8 days total isn't that many. I spent my first two years in Novice on a Busa and thought that's as far as I would go.

    I can give you two pieces of advice: 1) Grab a coach in the afternoon as he or she can be more specific about what you are doing; and 2) Try to follow someone faster than you and watch what they are doing; even if just for a turn or two. If will build your confidence without getting carried overboard.

    Just relax some. If you have questions about BP, please come to the class and we can address specifics. Or if you want to be bike specific, bring your bike down and we'll talk it over with you one on one. ASK ASK ASK.
     
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  6. jcrich

    jcrich What's an apex?

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    Step 1: Get a garden hose and wash that sand out of your vajay-jay. :D
    Step 2: Everything Mark and Keith have said.

    As has been said 8 days is not a lot of time on the track. Seat time is where it is at along with the coaching from the fine instructors. You will get there.
     
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  7. Liquidsilver

    Liquidsilver What's an apex?

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    I would suggest going through Jason DiSalvo's Ride University online. https://rideuniversity.com/ There's a lot of really good, free instruction about your body position. As many others have suggested, get those mechanics right and then repeat. You shouldn't be worrying about speed, but getting those mechanics right. Speed just happens when you're doing the right things.
     
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  8. KBikeJim

    KBikeJim Rides with no training wheels

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    Have done all the online video instruction.
     
  9. KBikeJim

    KBikeJim Rides with no training wheels

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    Thanks Keith. I have been through the body position class in Novice 3 times. I've done it with CSS. I've watched DiSalvo's vids. I KNOW it, and I can even do it nicely on the stationary bike in class. LOL, but doing it at speed it SEEMS like I'm in good position, but I look at my pics and know different. Definitely going to take advantage as much as I can with some 1 on 1 coaching.
     
  10. nytrozula

    nytrozula Rides with no training wheels

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    For me, once I started getting my head down towards the mirrors(kiss the mirrors), I felt like I was able to dive into the turns almost effortlessly. Everything started to come together much smoother.
     
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  11. KBikeJim

    KBikeJim Rides with no training wheels

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    Dude, I just say no to drugs! Seriously, yeah, the riding position is not ideal on this bike, but it's what I have now.

    I've got lots in my head, but it's not being 100% applied yet either.



    My "relax drills" are in my head, and I'm not near as tense on the bike as I was a year ago, but yes, I do tense up when trying to push past a mental barrier in corners. Again, a deal I "know" but struggle with in application at times.

    I am doing my set up before other inputs, and it FEELS like I'm off the bike more than I am. I guess I'm going to have to make it FEEL exaggerate to get close to where I need to be.

    I should do that note taking, and maybe I will, but it's not something I do normally. When you say countersteer THROUGHOUT the corner, do you mean active input even after your initial tip-in? Making steering corrections in the corner? Please elaborate on this!

    ^^Video study is something I do! I am a lawyer by day, but also coach HS and MS football for the last 10 years, and video study is a big deal with me. Before each track day, I go online and study vids of other more advanced rider's vids from the track I'm going to run. I do it for both track familiarization, as well as for technique and line study.
     
  12. KBikeJim

    KBikeJim Rides with no training wheels

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    While I do "know" body position, I'm convinced after reading this, that to apply it, I obviously need to do more practice even on a stationary bike, and like you suggest, do it on MY bike!
     
  13. TLR67

    TLR67 Cheers!
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    WD-40 on your seat will help.....:D
     
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  14. jcrich

    jcrich What's an apex?

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    I think ArmourAll might be better. ;)
     
  15. jcw

    jcw What's an apex?

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    OK... Here it goes... Please take it for what it's worth, I'm not a coach or expert racer by any stretch of the imagination.

    So this probably goes against all you've learned and read about being smooth and having minimal input into the bike BUT...

    One of my AHA moments came when I realized my initial steering input didn't have to be my one and only. I was leaning then locking in, tight in the arms, bracing myself and my whole body and just hanging on. I was a passenger. I had little option once in a corner to alter my line except to roll of the throttle and PRAY. LOL. Sound familiar?

    I watched disalvo on his bike in that video (and the fast people at trackdays) and was amazed at his ability in some corners to be "off" line on corner entry but when he wanted to dive for the apex, he could make his bike change direction and just go! Usually that meant additional steering inputs and lean angle or body position changes. So, I tried to figure/practice how to get that type of control in a corner.

    Just by chance, I also read somewhere that some racers go through racing boots every handful of races because they work their pegs so hard to steer. Huh? Really? My boots are pristine...

    So, I experimented weighting the pegs on corner entry and through the turn (some people call it steering with the pegs, but I think it has to do with decoupling a little of your own dead weight from the bike's suspension to let it work better) and adding input through the bars to tighten my line if needed. Immediately I felt more in control. Bike responded quicker and I felt I was steering it around the corner rather than leaning and hanging on. Less anxiety about- am I going to make this corner???

    The bike responded to my countersteering inputs faster, I was getting to lean angle quicker, and I was even coutersteering the opposite direction out of turns more.

    You can overdo it and make the bike feel unsteady and upset the chassis, but when you get there, you slow the inputs done a little and it feels right. Faster but slower. It made that next level difference for me.

    I know CSS has that No B.S. bike that shows how little body steering effects a bike, but in my opinion, I'm not doing it to steer the bike but to let it respond a little quicker to my inputs.


    I'm 46yo.and like you just recently started getting serious about learning to go fast. So, take my advice for what it's worth. I'm not a racer or a coach. Just a student of the sport.
     
  16. indy

    indy What's an apex?

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    So great advice given, after many posts by you. IMO your expecting too much too soon.
    Your not a spring chicken, you have MANY years of bad habits your trying to UN-learn and many new habits your trying to make second nature.
    My number was my AGE when I picked up my track bike, two years later I'm still having fun but do know my actual speed hasn't really increased.
    I ran several new tracks this year because my home track was getting boring. This is a plus and minus.
    When I did Barber (first time) I was riding 70% so I could just learn the track. I don't like big surprises while hauling ass.
    Keep getting the pictures, it will confirm progress or NOT. My last set showed while I thought my body postion was better, it really sucked.
    Not having unlimited budget, time and body shape I can't do track days weekly. I shoot for once a month.
    Ran last Sunday, and my legs still feel it on Thursday.

    I know the gym needs to be visited to help with my legs, core. This sport is not for weaklings.
    Get a GoPro 3 ask an coach to follow you while running video of your lap.
    Seeing the pictures, seeing the video will affirm what your doing.

    I was expecting my knee pucks to touch any second, looking at the pictures. NOT going to happen. Body position is still my nemesis.
    Make it to the I group, keep in touch. We might be able to help each other. From one old guy to another. LOL.
     
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  17. KBikeJim

    KBikeJim Rides with no training wheels

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    Thanks. CSS/Code calls what you're talking about "pivot steering" and it works. I did a drill on just that 6 weeks ago, and it does not come naturally, and it's something easy to "forget" especially when fatigued. I'm in that stage where I go out to work on one thing, and another thing or "technique" suffers. Little is second nature to me yet. Your answer was very helpful. I'm running Little Tally on Sunday, and going to make a plan to work on body position in conjunction with pivot steering. They go hand in hand really. Push off the outside peg, lock the outside knee in to the tank, point the midline of your body inside the turn. And we also did drill called "J turn". A drill to tighten up the turn by moving the upper body weight forward through the turn. "Kiss the mirror" type deal. I think I'll focus on these things that all hinge on body position. I have a lot of tools to "self coach" but talking with y'all helped me understand more how to utilize them.
     
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  18. KBikeJim

    KBikeJim Rides with no training wheels

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    Thanks, look forward to meeting and riding with you some day.
     
  19. jcw

    jcw What's an apex?

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    BP.jpg Check this out. I pulled it off one of the motoamerica supersport races on Bein sports youtube channel. If you don't open the hips toward the corner a little (point your crotch to the inside as you said) and ride crossed up, how effective is that inside throttle hand going to be to make additional steering or fine throttle inputs? Look at the angle of the wrist.
    Rider in front might feel like he's hanging off more, but I would say rider following has a better body position for control.
    Instead of thinking a butt cheek off which may suggest rotating your body (wrong), it might help to think of balls off the inside or pointing the body.

    Hope you have fun!
     
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  20. tnskydivr

    tnskydivr Shut up and Jump!
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    I might mention one other thing, as I see it consistently with novice riders. They will approach the brake marker, brake, downshift and wait until the tip in point to move their body - and it upsets the bike and the rider both. And immediately recenter even though the next turn is in the same direction.

    The time to shift your lower body in preparation for tip in is WAAAY earlier than that. Try doing that earlier, like before the brake marker, or at it. Since I'm old and heavy, when I grab the brake it lightens my ass on the seat and makes it easier for me to shift it THEN. I can downshift while my lower body is off the bike, and then all I have to do at the tip in is move my upper body. I've already completed the difficult move, so my mind is more caught up for the turn.

    I haven't followed you (yet) in order to see exactly where you could use some help, but I'll bet money that's part of it.
     
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