Tell me how much I suck

Discussion in 'Riding FAQ' started by forcedinduktion, Jul 14, 2015.

  1. forcedinduktion

    forcedinduktion Rides with no training wheels

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    Finally was able to get the GoPro on after the previous weekend I was unaware they changed the rules that it has to be tethered. Just got bumped to I group this past weekend on Sunday at BHF, as Saturday was a crap shoot and rained most of the day. Sunday would make my 9th trackday and third season riding.

    From the beginning I had an issue of turning in too early, not after a CR following me I'm told I'm turning in too late. But I was told that my body position is great and riding consistently. Any tips on improving lines and what to aim for to get closer to the apex?

    My speed has picked up dramatically and bike is finally dialed in. Even with the speed I was riding, I felt comfortable and at no point did I feel that I was going to loose it. My plan next time out is to slow down a little bit and really hammed the lines.

    Running Q3s, no warmers so first lap is warm up.

    [YOUTUBE]6SwqluzcBuI[/YOUTUBE]
     
  2. sheepofblue

    sheepofblue Rides with no training wheels

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    I am not an expert but at first glance there is one thing it seems like you frequently don't get in at the apex. So instead of being where it looks like you are at the razors edge or in further (camera is offset in from tires) I am guessing you are 5 ft off the apex. Just an impression.

    Otherwise you did seem smooth and predictable.

    Oh and if you find the laps that are faster compare them as to WHERE you made time by running video next to each other (assuming you don't have a GPS timer)

    Cool track, never been there but it looks fun. Not sure about stuff off the side but then all tracks have some issues.
     
  3. eE jeremy

    eE jeremy Rides with no training wheels

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    I didn't watch the whole thing, but I skipped around a few times to get the general idea. The biggest issue you have is your inability to adjust your line/speed. The reason for that is you are not trail braking, instead you are setting your speed prior to tipping in for the corner, then trying to get your initial turn in while coasting, then getting onto the throttle well before the apex. Long story short, that technique is going to make it very difficult to turn that motorcycle.

    So here's how it needs to play out. You need to carry more speed into the corner by not squeezing the brakes as hard initially, but staying with the brake longer, slowly trailing off brake pressure as you turn the bike in, ideally by the time you get to the apex you will just be finally fully released on the brake lever. It's a very slow release of the lever over the entire distance from tip in to apex of the corner. The reason we do this is because it keeps the suspension stable, it keeps weight over the front tire, keeps the forks slightly compressed, and most importantly allows you to make adjustments to your line. Running too wide? No problem sqeeze the brake lever a tiny bit more. Line too tight? Again not a problem release a tiny bit of brake pressure. You now have a way to adjust your speed and line midcorner, and you no longer need to perfectly guess your speed on the straight leading up to it. Do you think the pros are always inch perfect because they perfectly judge every corner before turning? No, they are constantly adjusting.

    By using some front brake while turning your tire will provide more traction because it will be weighted, additionally with the forks slightly compressed the bikes wheelbase is slightly shorter and the geometry allows for a tighter turn at a given lean angle/speed.

    Next time out find a coach and ask for help learning to trail brake and we can run you through some exercises to get you started.
     
    #3 eE jeremy, Jul 14, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015
  4. Mran556

    Mran556 Rides with no training wheels

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    Great Advice Im going to use it as well
     
  5. winger

    winger Badass

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    This is maybe the best explanation I have heard. Thanks!
     
  6. VernLux

    VernLux Knows an apex

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    I actually taught him everything he knows! :lmao:

    Just kidding, I don't even know him but talk about some top notch advice.....eE jeremy absolutely NAILED it! Nice job man!
     
  7. sbk1198

    sbk1198 What's an apex?

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    Overall I'd say it's not too bad. I agree with the advice above though. I don't want to sound like a prick, but I'm pretty impressed that you're going that fast (1:26-27s based on a few cleaners laps in the video) with the lines you were taking, being in I group for the first time and having only done 9 track days over 3 years. I was there for the first time this last May racing in CCS. I'm an advanced rider with STT, and Trackaddix (my local org), and after a whole day of practice and 2 races I was only able to do 1:23's on a liter bike. I know that's relatively slow, and the locals smoked me (guys who have been there like 15+ times), but Blackhawk is a very technical and challenging track. I was warned before that it's not easy to go fast there, and you need a lot of laps around there to get faster.
     
  8. eE jeremy

    eE jeremy Rides with no training wheels

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    Going fast at Blackhawk is about corner speed and sneaking in the throttle in a few spots that aren't immediately obvious:

    Turn 2 is fast, over 100mph

    Pour in some more throttle after turn 2 and before turn 3, this makes the entry to turn 3 a very hard braking zone.

    Roll the throttle on slowly the whole way through turn 3, with a quick full throttle burst before heavy braking into the bus stop.

    Turn 4 is a bit of a throw away, but roll it as fast as you safely can without running wide.

    Roll the throttle on all the way through turn 5 and you should end up WOT on the right side of the track at the exit.

    Roll off the throttle before the kink and start HEAVY braking for turn 7, make sure you're pointed in the right direction as you come through the kink so you can get your braking done with the bike straight up and down, you have a ton of speed to scub in a short distance. Trail the brakes off as you get the bike turned, and as soon as you can see your exit point open the throttle back up and haul ass down the front straight. Corner speed through turn 7 is critical.

    And that's how you go fast around bhf :)
     
    dkornfeind likes this.
  9. eE jeremy

    eE jeremy Rides with no training wheels

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    This is from a couple years ago and somebody took me out on the last lap but you get the idea lol...
    https://vimeo.com/45046674
     
  10. forcedinduktion

    forcedinduktion Rides with no training wheels

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    Thanks for all the feedback guys! I would agree that I have to start practicing trail braking. Your observations are correct Jeremy, I brake hard to set my speed and then turn in. I brought up the topic before with a few friends that ride advanced, this was when I was still in N group, and they told me not to worry about trail braking just get, so I didn't. I was also told the same thing in the coaching groups. Now that I have gained some skill, I think it may be time to start advancing my skill set.

    The setting speed was even worse for me in previous sessions as I would brake, coast longer, then turn in, even despite going slower by quite a bit.

    Now watching the video that Jeremy posted, I am seeing that my lines were off by quite a BIT. Now I am questing myself how I was passing most other riders on the track with the lines I was taking, not to sound egotistical. I know I have LOTS more to learn, and always wanting advice for others to keep learning and not turning down any advice when people are telling me I ride terribly. I've seen others get mad when others give them advice, after asking for it, because it wasn't the validation they were wanting to hear.

    Trying to work on one thing at a time instead of doing 5 things at once and getting overwhelmed. All in all, I am glad my bike is responding well and finally set up for my fat arse (190lbs) and the Q3s are holding down well.

    Trying to pass some knowledge onto my brother, despite him being hard headed. He did his first track day on Saturday, he's only been riding for 3 weeks now. Went out in the afternoon session when it was raining (while still in N on Saturday). I wanted to practice some smooth throttle control during the rain. Told my brother not to go out but he went anyway after I left the pit. Then he tried following me and attempting to keep up and ended up hitting a slick spot, cut the throttle in panic and went down. Bike was a little banged up, but ride able, but luckily he walked away from it. Despite the circumstances, I hope he learned something and will think twice next time his ego gets the better of him.
     
    #10 forcedinduktion, Jul 14, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015
  11. Knolly

    Knolly What's an apex?

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    Figured I could share this too:

    [youtube]kdosCLGQyu8[/youtube]

    The bike in front (Jason Pridmore) is doing a nice demonstration of lines on the track. Ignore the jackass on the camera bike who can't follow his instructions.
     
  12. Derick

    Derick Rides with no training wheels

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    I watched this for about 5 min. Suggestion #1 find an apex, in the 3 laps I watched, you hit 1 apex. Your turn is is way way to early causing you to run wide on most corners. Trail braking will help as mentioned above.

    I know Jeremy posted a video, but here is how I ride BHF

    Turn 1 - Hard brake at the 4 board 2nd gear, all the way left to the point where you about to hit the grass, late apex, full throttle up to 3rd, stay on the gas until you see the last dot, slight roll off, tip in, back on gas full throttle. Hard brake for T3, enter about 3/4 track, look to hit the first curbing with your knee, by that time you should be in the gas again, once you pass the curbing, full throttle, drive the bike with the rear, you should be standing the bike up as you make your way around. When you get to the quick left, off the gas, tip in, hard on the gas again, all the way left, down 1 gear for turn in. Late apex you just want to clip the concrete corner in 4, exit 1/2 track, flip the bike left, full throttle into 5. No brakes into 5, let the engine do the work, you want corner speed here, tip in, as soon as you see the curbing on the exit, drive that bike hard, full throttle toward the access road, up 1 gear, slight roll off for the left, then back to full throttle. Hard braking for T6a, down 1 gear, mid apex, back on gas, short shift up, hold throttle constant, tip in for T6b, full throttle, up 2 gears (if your counting thats 5th gear), hold throttle until the kink, hard on the brakes, down 3 gears fast, full throttle down the straight braking at the 4 board for T1 again.

    I noticed that in the fast parts of the track you tend to hold the throttle at a constant speed, not full throttle. You also tend to get off the gas and coast quite a bit in the hard braking zones. Focus first on hitting every apex, dont worry about speed. Once you can hit every apex, every time, then focus on getting the bike to full throttle in the fast parts, if you have to roll off early thats ok, focus on driving out of the corners. Then just for kicks, go out at the back of the pack, and purposly over-brake every corner (dont be a danger by going too slow, but brake enough to slow down too much, that will teach you how hard you can brake, then move your brake markers up.

    Good luck
     
  13. Derick

    Derick Rides with no training wheels

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    To give you a bit of an idea of how the fast guys run the track. Here are 2 guys that routinely do 1:10 there. The video has about 800 views, I've contributed about a 100 of them. Yes I have gotten faster watching what the fast guys do.

    [youtube]DrlDaNBuHfw[/youtube]
     
  14. josh7owens

    josh7owens What's an apex?

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    I need a play by play like this for NCM!
     
  15. Ohio_1199DUC

    Ohio_1199DUC Knows an Apex when he sees one
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    I'm a firm believer in trail braking! It's a fine art to master and I am constantly trying to refine my technique... I have the added benefit of ABS so I feel this will probably ruin me for a non-ABS bike!

    You just got bumped to "I", Keep smooth, focus on looking where you wanna go, focus on your markers and it will come to you. Never hesitate to ask a coach to tow you around and explain to them you want a easier pace at first. Keep your eyes wide open and take in everything he is doing.
     
  16. sbk1198

    sbk1198 What's an apex?

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    Was just about to mention this! Dan Ortega holds the record there for 600s with a 1:08 something! My brain can't comprehend how that's possible lol, but when I was there in may there were multiple guys doing 1:10s all day long, and some were on 600s.

    Watching the Team Challenge race from the pits, next to the control tower by the start/finish line and seeing when Jason Farrell was letting off and braking for T1 was mind-blowing! He was letting off a good 100-150 feet farther than I was and I'm betting at that point he was also carrying about 15+ mph more than I was.
     
  17. CBay2857

    CBay2857 Rides with no training wheels

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    Lots of good advice here. Trail braking is most definitely an art. Work your way up to it. As others have mentioned, drag the brake longer into the turn to work your way up to it. I used to find myself hard braking while up right and shedding all my speed, then I would end up coasting to the apex while getting passed by people on the brakes :) Rather than initially pushing my braking marker deeper and hard braking to the Apex (which can be intimidating) I would brake a little easier but carry it deeper into the turn. Once you feel comfortable with that turn you can move your braking points deeper and brake harder. At least that works for me.

    Just as important is your throttle control coming out of the turn. If you're thinking you may run a little wide and start dirt tracking :eek: don't apply as much throttle as you may have normally and you will tighten up the turn. Absolute precision with the right hand is a lot of what makes the fast guys fast... I just can't say I am one of them.
     
  18. tnskydivr

    tnskydivr Shut up and Jump!
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    Just remember, a late apex is almost ALWAYS safer than an early apex....
     
  19. Ohio_1199DUC

    Ohio_1199DUC Knows an Apex when he sees one
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    Agreed x1000!
     
  20. DustinS

    DustinS n00b

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    Early apex is the preferred short cut method :rolleyes:
     

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