Hi All, I've done a handful of track days at BeaveRun with STT in the Beginner group. Initially, I enjoyed the highly structured approach and classroom sessions, but the last couple of track days were less satisfying due to fusterclucks on the track regarding passing. It was a PITA almost every session with groups getting spread out. It seemed we were always either crawling through the turns behind slower sub-groups or crawling on the straights to let a faster sub-group pass. Very few laps without traffic issues of one sort or another. I think I'd like a more NESBA-like Beginner option (limited passing with control riders providing individual feedback). I'm not sure I'm fast enough for the STT Intermediate group. NESBA days seem to have a more aggressive feel to them with more rule bending and passing violations, so I'm not sure that's what I want either. I don't go to the track to go fast. I go there to learn and work on cornering skills. The track is my classroom, not my playground. My relaxed approach to staightaway speed isn't the NESBA way. What level of instruction is available in STT Intermediate? I'm really looking for someone to tell me specifically what I'm doing right and what I need to work on regarding line, smoothness, body position, etc. That is best served by following me around for a few laps I think, but that's not how the STT beginner sessions work. I've always been impressed by the generally courteous on-track behavior of other riders at STT. Thoughts? Is STT Intermediate really where I belong?
If you are in the #1 group in novice ask a coach if he or she thinks you are ready for the jump to Intermeadiate . The traffic between groups is sometimes unavoidable .Just part of the dues you pay to move up the ladder . If and when you make the jump to I group ask a coach to lead/follow you around .Its better when you seek them out .they dont mind , really ! When bumping up a class , start at the back of the session, This way you wont feel the pressure of someone behind you :mrgreen:
I was a mid-pack Novice last season. Certainly not group 1 or 2. Maybe I'll move up there this year now that I have a real sportbike instead of hustling the Sprint around the track. The Kwak 636 handles a LOT better. I'm still no fan of hammering down the straights and grabbing huge handfuls of brake to scrub all that (worthless IMO) speed off. I really enjoy seeing how LITTLE brakes I can use and work on being smooth and slowly increasing corner speed. Just like the "one gear only, no shifting, no brakes" session, except I want to ride like that all day. I know I'm not the typical track guy. I'm a street/twisties rider that wants to improve his skills to be safer/smoother on the street, not a track rat. I'm just trying to figure where/if I fit in in the various track day orgs for next season.
I was at this past Jennings STT, and the Novices were allowed individual passing after lunch (on the straights). We started with our group and the instructor waved each by, followed a bit, then waved the next by. Once you waved by, you were on your own unless an instructor came by you and put you on their 6. The last 2 sessions were 'open' with the instructors riding control (open passing as well w/ 6' buffer). At Jennings at least, you could have had 1 on 1 coaching all day in the intermediate group... Clyde is _the_ man, and I'm glad I stayed out of Robert's dog house... First rate trackday all around, can't wait for the next one...
Hey, Garry. I thought I'd share a few thoughts on the forum rather than contact you directly. First, I think your 636 will make you more comfortable than the Sprint RS. Your sense of speed, which is what informs the riding experience, will be reduced due to better brakes, better suspension, less mass, etc. If you feel you are being held back by the pack riding in your class, move up a group or two in the class and start at the back. If the leaders of that group get away from you, you will at least have some clear track to ride! Like Sweet Pea says, you have to pay a certain amount of "dues" as you move not only from B to I but also up through the ranks of each of those groups. The real difference between beginner and intermediate is the opportunity to pass, which allows you to carry more corner speed because you do not have to pull up behind a slower rider. Plus, people are much more conscious of their lines because there is the possibility of being passed. I'm really enjoying STT's intemediate group, especially on my EX500, because of the opportunities for passing, which allow me to maintain my pace around the entire circuit. There's nothing like passing bikes with 3x the horsepower! Remember, there is terminal speed (measured at the end of a straight) and there is average speed (usually measured in terms of lap time). Developing corner speed, especially on a course like Beaver Run, leads to better lap times without having to push the terminal speed. STT intermediate fits my skill set right now, especially on a low-horsepower bike like my EX500. I think you might find it a good fit, as well. But you will have to work through those "Oh, cr*p!" moments that _will_ occur. I don't think you can be 100% comfortable and continue to improve on the track. However, you can be 100% aware that you will need to deal with Keith Code's "survival reactions" as you encounter, address, and move past them. And this awareness is what leads to confidence. See you on the track in the spring! Kurt
A few points: if you're uncomfortable with speed, you're probably not looking far enough down the track. i felt the same way as you, and once i started looking way down the straights as well as through the corners, my comfort level with speed went way up! remember the old saw, "don't look where you're going; look where you want to go". One newbie to another, given your apprehension with speed, i'd say that you're probably not quite ready for intermediate. this is not a bad thing. you've done well by pointing out a weak area yourself; next, move up a group and continue to work on trouble issues. take advantage of the instructors, they're there for you! (actually, they're there for the free track-time that comes with wearing the orange vest, but make them earn their keep! :twisted: ) don't feel bad about not moving up quickly. the novice group is a great place to wring out bad habits and practice fundamentals. yes the mornng sessions can be boring, but pay attention, they're teaching some really valuable stuff! I personally did 8 days in novice, before i felt i was ready to move to intermediate. I learned quite a few lessons the hard way, but i'm really glad i waited as long as i did.and Like you, i was also limited by riding a sport-tourer, rather than a proper sportbike. (ask any of the instructors, i was a really slow learner... :? ) by the time i did move up to intermediate, i was amazed to see how much faster i was than a good deal of the riders. it's a really good idea to work out your issues with going fast, before you move up because, as an instructor who i shall not name told me, "intermediate is the most dangerous group @ STT." this is because at least a third of the riders in Intermediate, probably should still be in novice, the top 15% should probably be in advanced, but they like being the "fast guys..." with such a wide range of abilities, Interediate can be a bit of a crash-fest, although BeaverRun, was probably less so than other venues. take your time, be safe and most importantly, Have Fun! see you next year, Lance
As a beginner group rider in 2005 I told myself I would go through the whole year in the Novice group. And I did. All I cared about was getting smoother and more predictable (not worrying about speed) and I moved up in the novice groups. sometimes I did get frustrated later in the year, early in the day because I wanted to go faster, but told myself to take easy and work on my lines, the speeds will pick later in the day. When I felt ready to move up to Intermediate, I had an Instructor follow me around in an Intermediate session. Afterwords he gave me the green light to move up. As for moving up in the Novice group's I've been in slow group ones and fast group threes. I agree with Sweet Pea stay to the back, if the group gets away from you, you have track til the next group catches up with you. When that happened to me the instructor of the group that followed me found me afterwards and gave me some helpful tips. And it was a big help. Talk to the instructors, ask them for help. that's what I did and I got it. By the way, to all the STT instructors that helped me on my first year at the track THANKS! And A big thanks to Troy & Michele Stone who helped more than they needed to.
Gingerman was the last place I rode intermediate and I never used my brakes all day. I had the bike in third gear the whole day and was one of the fastest guys on the track. I use to blast down the straits and park in the concers when I had a big bike. Then I got on a little bike I saw what I was doing and started to improve my concering speeds. I wish I would have started on 250 to many bad habits to break now. One gear drill like it taught in Novices.
Robert is the man right there with Super Clyde. He gave me one key piece of advice that really took me to the next level. <-----Notice the left elbow bent right there. I kept straight arming it into each corner until one of the afternoon sessions. Robert told me that the only way to get faster was to bend my elbow towards the corner. Is there a curriculum difference between STT North and STT South? I've done two days with STT Novice at Barber and was allowed to pass in either the 2nd or 3rd session on both days. 1st passing session was only in the straights then opened to outside of the corner during the afternoon sessions. My understanding of the I group is that the CR's are there when you need them, but you have to ask. Regardless of structure, I'm sure any one of the STT CR's would be more than willing to help you if asked.
Hello Gary, My advice for you would be to start out next season again in the Novice group since you will be on a new track bike. It will give you a more relaxed environment to learn how the 636 behaves. Start out in group 1 or 2, for many in those groups have previous track experience and will at times (at the instructors discretion) get up to speed quicker. Just remember to communicate with your instructor, let them know if the pace is too quick or slow for you and if you want to work on specific skills. If you find yourself falling behind within your group or that you are riding over your head (concentrating too much on keeping up) please do not try to catch up. The instructor should see that you are falling back and slow up the pace or the instructor of the group behind you will pick you up. I can't reiterate this enough, the biggest issues I see with Novice riders is they are too reserved or proud to ask for help. We are there to help (not just for the free track time as some might think :wink: ) and if you feel frustrated where you are at we will be happy to move you up or down within the groups. If throughout the day you still feel you are not getting anything out of your group we can (space permitting) move you up to the Intermediate group. Once you are in the Intermediate group, get with a track coach immediately and they will be happy to provide you with one on one help to get you through the transition from Novice to Intermediate and to further work on your skills. Hope this helps. Feel free to PM me if you have any further questions or concerns.
The fundamental issue, as I see it, is that Novice groups get too spread out on the track. This makes it very hard for the group to pass a slower group or be passed by a faster group. When groups get spread out like that, you get the traffic fusterclucks I was talking about. Everyone loses. There are two ways to address this. Either the control rider rides as slow as the slowest member of his group (to ensure the group stays tight) or the instuctors have to be a LOT more pro-active in moving people around between groups to try to get the members of a group at the same pace. This seems like a very difficult task since people's paces are changing throughout the day. I really don't care what number group I end up in. I have no delusions about my skills or pace (or lack thereof). I really don't care if I'm in Novice or Intermediate. All I want to do is to circulate around the track at a pace I'm comfortable wtih, with minimal traffic issues, so that I can improve my cornering skills. I'm perfectly happy to cruise the straights and let faster people by as there is nothing to learn there. Some personal feedback on how I'm doing (by being followed for a few laps) a couple times a day would be great. I've got a few months to decide what I'm going to do. Thanks for all the replies.
Garry, You hit the nail on the head regarding how things should work. Unfortunately, it's easier said than done. Knowing how physically & mentally taxing is it to try to get yourself around the track at a respectable pace, imagine doing it while monitoring upwards of a half dozen other riders, as well as other groups. Some handle it better than others, & we all have bad days. Just as one rider can hold up a group, one group can hold up a session. We try to get things sorted out & running smoothly as quickly as possible, so everyone can have a fun & safe experience. Every day ends up being a slightly different combination of riders & abilities though, so the results can vary. I think you'll find that as you move up to the first couple of groups in the Novice group, the pace of the riders within the group will be more similar, allowing the instructor more time to watch you ride rather than spending most of it keeping the group together. I'm also confident that your patience with the Novice group will make you better equipped to handle the Intermediate group when you're ready. Knowing how tough it would be trying to make sure everything was OK with everybody all the time, please always feel free to approach any instructor with any questions, comments, or concerns you have. In the end, we're always trying to improve the way we do things, & we appreciate your input.
I would add that there is quite a bit to learn by going fast on the straights . Brakes and proper setting of corner entry speeds come to mind . One concern of moving up to "I" group and cruising the straights would be those faster guys may not realize you are cruising when they come up on you at such a great closing speed as you both are setting up to enter the next turn ... As a CW and a rider , I've witnessed several bikes almost get A$$packed when someone ran up on them and didn't realize they were parked . Parking it on the straights is marginally better than parking it in the corners . The track is still not a very good place to be going very slow in relation to other bikes out there at the same time . I would suggest looking as far ahead on the track as you can when on the straights to lessen the sense of speed . If you look down , left , right or simply slightly ahead , that asphalt and other fixed obstacles wizz by pretty darn intimidating . Look way ahead , down the track and work on all the bikes capabilities . Cornering , brakes and accelleration ...
this is all very interesting information to know.. thanks guys. As I sit here I realize that i may have already developed some of the track riding skills, I'm not 100% about this cuz I have never been on a closed track environment. Though I usually do tend to find myself analyzing my own turns as i am doing them ( i tend to find vacant runs of road and ride them as much as i can). But I find myself asking, am i looking through the turn, how was my throttle/brake control on entering and exiting, how was my body position, were my feet setup right on my pegs, and my on going question that i do not have an answer to is, how low was I?...seeing that i dont ride with sliders on the road, i dont use my knees as feelers, so if i am riding with someone, i usually ask them. I learned the bent elbows a while back, and that is an awesome technique to get the bike to do what u want it to...