I've got 2 track days under my belt (both at Grattan). First day was classic "I'm super slow and don't know what I'm doing but this is awesome!" Second day, reality sets in and it becomes quite clear that I'm really awful at this track riding thing. Of all the major things to do when taking corners, I'm not doing anything correctly. By the middle of the day, it was impossible for me to make any progress mainly because I'm trying to work on everything at every corner, but I've only got so much bandwidth, so everything suffers. I know that I'll make progress with experience, but I'm an engineer and I need a plan on how to approach things. From what I can tell, a lot of my issues in the corner (entering too slow, coasting into the apex, waiting too long to get on the throttle, really wide exits) stem from not setting them up correctly. I don't know how to set up a corner, so I take it slow and suffer the consequences of that. It seems like a lot of this could be helped by getting good corner entry reference markers, but how does one pick a good marker if they're not taking the corners properly? The way I see it, a good marker will set me up for a good line and help me judge speed, but if my line and speed are bad to begin with, I don't know what a good marker is. My coach was great at pointing out his markers, but I don't have anywhere near his speed/skill, so I'm guessing those markers are pretty aggressive for me. I know it's probably not an easy thing for most of you to answer since it's natural for you now, but how did you go about finding the right markers?
Or, put another way, if good reference markers are key to good cornering skills, how do I know if a reference marker is good if I don't have good cornering skills?
Yeah...found that out the hard way. My first day at Grattan had cones at all the corners. I probably wasn't using them correctly, but I found them helpful. Second day...they were gone. Doh!
ok, your going to hate the first part of my response... reference points, braking points.. line choice and even acceleration points change as pace dictates... there is of course the optimal line , and a round about turn in spot but the rest all changes as you pick up skills and pace... that said... you need to pick something hard/ immovable and more important in your field of vision. so a drainage grate, service road, corner worker station... patch marks in the tarmac (but a repave or track surfacing can change ) and use that as you turn in point.. (every track and ever turn at that track is different ) so from that spot looking through the turn to your apex will be your angle of entry. to recap... look for spots on or around the track that are "permanent" turn in at that spot to the apex.. to get a hair more helpful.. do NOT attempt to work on everything at once.. our brains simply cannot process it all and stick. so pick a section generally 2-3 turns to work on reference points... and then ride like you have been the rest of the lap. work on those 3 turns the whole session... next session pick the next 2-3 turns and do the same thing... you should have an idea of the first 3 so that will become passive memory. do this over and over till you "get it" then pick something else to work on... say braking and do it for that first 3 turn section again.. and things will start coming together. Generally over the course of a 2 day weekend you will be able to really work on the whole track doing 2 maybe 3 things better if you block and section the actions into single events. to leave you with 1 more thing do not attempt to work on these items at full pace.. you certainly cannot work on a problem area when your riding at the maximum slow your pace 20% and work on the above. As you get more consistent the pace naturally picks up as you will "feel" like you are not going fast enough
This makes sense. So, it's best to just pick a point near-ish to where I think "ideal" would be, and then use that until I get faster/better? I may pick "wrong" initially, but by having a fixed point, I can forget about that and work on the other things (throttle, steering, etc...). What would be the best way to fit this into the standard novice curriculum? The first drill is about the 3 lines, so it seems like reference markers aren't all that helpful there. The next 2 sessions are about throttle control in 3rd gear (which also need significant work). Do I wait until later in the day to start working on reference markers? Or am I on the wrong track here and should be focusing on things in the order the curriculum goes through them?
follow the curriculum , think back or listen to when your instructors tell you what the 3 line drill is for... to see and feel the entire width of the track... to get accustomed to it AND the surroundings... if you notice during this session there is little to no pace. there is no significant lines.. it is for you to feel it out and notice things.. this is where I tell my students to start taking mental notes about the surface , the apex "locations" any anomalies in the track and its surroundings that maybe noteworthy. the next 2 sessions are again meant to focus your energy , we stick you in a single gear, no brakes (unless needed) to take 2 more focus points out of the equation. watch your instructor .. this is where you should pay attention to the location in which he/ she turns in then note what you see at THAT spot of turn in.(hopefully it is close to what you possibly saw earlier). chances are there is something glaringly visible that they are using... seeing as you are new to track this spot or marker they are using may not be directly something you would have noticed until you look at that area. (NOW please when looking around NEVER look back and try , try, try to use your peripheral vision as you should always be looking forward and through the turn) as you can see by now. we set up the sessions in a way that slowly ramps up the required skills that are needed to be practice in a what that should assist in not overloading you. Everyone learns different and it is extremely easy during your first few track weekends to be overwhelmed. There is just SO much to take in. The best thing about this sport to me is that you never stop learning. There is always someone faster / better/ more natural so progression is 100% subjective. I still learn new things every time I turn a wheel on the track whether I am in novice coaching or in advanced riding at my normal pace. I've noticed something over the 10+ years ive been doing this, the first trackday someone does is 90% a success they love it and had a great time. the next few days of track riding are the test, the initial overload of emotions is wearing off and now they start working on getting better. 2 things happen they love it or they get frustrated and dont ask for help and never come back. hopefully more are the latter. So enjoy! NEVER EVER stop asking questions, there are no stupid ones, just smartassed answers ask your coach or many coaches. We are here for you.. we are 100% approachable, we want to help.
I'm definitely in that mix of love/frustration. Things went poorly for me last Saturday, but I want to keep working on it and get better. Makes me wish I wasn't just limited to a few months of midwestern summer. What happened last week was that I was slower than my group (yes, I've proven that it's possible to be too slow for the slowest group...). So I spent sessions 2 and 3 playing catch-up. I'd fall behind, race to catch up, mess up the corner, fall further behind, and repeat. I ended session 3 early because my mind wasn't focusing on what it needed to, and I wasn't learning anything by racing into each corner. If I find things happening like this again, what's the best way to handle it? I know I can't expect the coach to be my personal instructor for the day (all the other riders are just as important as me). Should I fall off the group pace and keep working on throttle control? What's the best way to communicate to my instructor that I'm slow right now? (I'm not being modest here...I'm actually slow) I want to work on these skills in each session--I guess I just need to work on my expectations and realize I'm not going to get it right on day 2 (or 3, or 4....).
the correct way to handle it is number 1 realize that the pace you are at isn't sustainable safely. so DON'T ride over your head pulling in is correct if that is what you are most comfortable with... number 2 go to your instructor and vocalize to him/her that the pace they are going is to much for you at the moment. if you are in a group with room to move to a lower group that would be the correct way.. If you happen to be in the lowest group available when you speak to your coach they will get with the novice lead instructor and if staffing allows we will certainly place you one on one with a coach to get you back up to whatever pace you deem. if that means all day well guess what we'll do it. everyone learns differently and at different speeds some people progress very quickly others may take years. the key is fun.. and thats what your going for here.. obviously progression is apart of that, though its a small piece in the puzzle.
Matt if at all possible to come a day before or stay after the trackday and do a track walk. Grattan is a long walk but you can find big in movable objects. I am so glad you are going to stick with it. with the torque of your v twin you should be able to roll most of the track in 3 or 4th gear. Not sure who you had for a instructor normally we all try and keep our group gathered up being close to the instructor helps see those reference marks we are pointing out.. Like Jason aka the Rabbit said the key is fun.
Dont be worried or ashamed if you're not learning as fast as most of the others in Novice. I'm living proof that you WILL LEARN AND GET BETTER, if you listen to your coaches, ask them for advice and have them SHOW you (sitting on your bike), etc. My first track day was back in July 2011. I could only afford like 1-2 weekends per season, so fast forward to Sept. 2017. I did a 3-day weekend (sat+sun, then monday for Ducati Detroit trackday). I had 17 track days under my belt at that point, when I FINALLY got the bump to "Int". I'm still working on stuff, that maybe other folks figured out YEARS ago. lol If you really LOVE doing trackdays, keep at it. It will come to you!
Thanks so much for the advice, tips, and encouragement. I'm frustrated, but in a "I want to improve and work on this" way, so I'm excited to get back out on the track and work at this. Having a better idea of what I need to do is immensely helpful, and I can't wait to try again. I can see the value in doing a Sat/Sun set since it would help me put things in practice right away instead of waiting a few weeks. All of you STT coaches are great, both here on the forum and at the track. Thanks!
I didn't realize you could do a track walk...is that pretty much any of the days after riding is done? That would be helpful, too. Thanks for the encouragement. And my coach last time was absolutely fantastic. Any struggles I had were either me not speaking up about something, or my subconscious mind not believing the coach. I'll get back out there soon!
It's helpful to remember that I'm not the first person to struggle with riding on track and that yes, it will get better. Glad you've worked your way up and I'm hoping to do the same!
Another thing that might help is grid up early and get right behind the coach for your group, that way it is easier for both you to see what the coach is doing and easier for the coach to see where you are struggling and give you feedback.
track walks are on your own after a track has gone cold.. usually most wait till 6-8 to do them... they are not led by anyone UNLESS STATED AS AN EVENT which isn't to often. NO motorized vehicles on track and pedal bikes are only allowed on certain tracks and you HAVE to have a helmet. a walk is very helpful you can see so many things that you may miss at speed as long as you recognize you can fix it, and I agree get right behind your coach.. your coach SHOULD be telling you group that they should rotate themselves to allow everyone a chance right behind the coach
Grattan will let you walk of bicycle anytime the track is cold a few of the guys and girls ride or run the track in morning to warm up. Helmet is required if you bike or roller blade. Canadian Steve is our resident walk director.(he isn't STTT staff but a great guy who loves the sport) if he happens to be there at the next event. I can introduce you there is a ton of stuff he will point out like the off camber in 7 that will get you into trouble in a hurry. Ps I am Rob Troms green zx6r I was there your first day and we talked briefly. Pit area Silver in Black legend trailer with white Daytona 675 with pink wheels. Your welcome to stop by anytime. Also Grattan Camping is free with the gate fee and the showers are pretty nice. you can save money bring food to grill or sandwiches in the cooler help keep the cost of the sport lower
Thanks Rob...I kinda thought that was you from the avatar, but hard to tell with the small photos. I'll make sure to do a track walk next time I'm there. Can't make Grattan at the end of the month, but looking at July 21/22
Matt, I was the king of novice. Never pushed to bump because of the saying, I is the meet grinder. After decades of street riding and what I found later was, I really had NO idea how to actually drive a motorcycle. I had been riding and surviving on the street. I've got a friend who bought his first motorcycle after researching the best cruiser. A Kawi concourse. No experience and 1400cc, he realized he could go fast but had big problems on the corners. Came to a track day, ended up in the last group of N with no one else. One on one coaching. He was frustrated that the coach would not let him go faster on the straights and quit before the day ended. We told him the coach was trying to help him make the first corner at a safe pace which he couldn't do. To this day watching him ride is flat scary. To this day I work hard on my body position. Be patient and you will get it. On the Ninja forum when a new member and first time bike owner introduces themselves I push really hard for them to do some track days. To the point of annoying some, (who have never done one) because I firmly believe learning on the track will allow you to truly be safer on the street. If I can progress, you can. Plan on this weekend your going to work on throttle and braking. Nothing else. When you have time and aren't traveling call me.
Resurrecting this old thread... Made it to the track last weekend at Gingerman for both Saturday and Sunday. Won't recap everything, but after a slow start, things finally started to turn around for me. Realized a few key things: Once I was able to apply smooth, consistent maintenance throttle through corners, the difference in turning ability is like night and day. I know why it improves handling, but I had to do it a few times to believe it. Once I figured that out, it was much easier to overcome the natural tendency to chop the throttle. At my first track day at Grattan, I was probably using 20% of my bike's capability, but I felt like I was using 110% of it. This weekend, I feel like I made some progress and realized that my bike and tires are a lot more capable than one would think, and it's ok to push things a bit more as long as I'm focusing on fundamentals like throttle control, turn-in and apex points, and looking through the turns. I worked with a number of awesome coaches over the weekend (Dirk, Stu, John, Matt, Layne...I think?), but everything "clicked" on Sunday afternoon when I spent a session working with Tyler. He rode just far enough ahead of me that I could react to him pointing out turn-in and apex points yet still look far ahead through the turn. Within that session, I felt like I was actually riding on a track and not just on cruise through the neighborhood. By no means did I do things perfectly and I still have tons to work on, but I came in from that session feeling pumped. So thank you to everyone who helped me on this post and to the great STT staff members at Gingerman this weekend. You've all been great, and I'm looking forward to working at this more and more.