I really appreciate and enjoy the instruction that STT gives us novice riders. That's the main reason STT gets the majority of my track day $$$. For 2 day events, the first couple of sessions of Day 2 are not helpful and do not build on the day 1 drills. It's frustrating to spend time doing a parade lap for the 1st session after already having experience with the track. I guess this applies to Day 1 as well, but for those of us that do ride at the same tracks over and over, I'd like to see the Novice group split into 2 groups....new track riders and more experienced, but not yet ready to move up to Intermediate. I'm not ready to pass, or be passed on the inside, but I don't really enjoy wasting a session of track time riding around like a group of Shriners in a parade. STT has enough instructors at each event, that I hope you all will consider this change to the Novice schedule.
I think that's an excellent suggestion, and may prevent those "more experienced, but not ready to move to intermediate" riders from going there before they're ready anyway, just to not have to do what you're describing, re: more parade laps when you've been there done that.
I can understand that John... In my opinion you would be fine in Intermediate. You had the Blue/White bike right? The good thing about the shriner laps is to get the bugs/butterflies out of alot of the people.. Also it helps people who never have been on that paticular track learn the lines... Marc
What about having 4 groups - Novice, Intermediate I, Intermediate II and Advanced. Make them all 15 minutes instead of 20 minutes. The 5 extra minutes lost each session would be made up for by more uniformity of skills within each group... I'm not saying it is the solution, just throwing out an idea - anybody else have thoughts about this?
I can see your point, as a guy who did about 6 novice days before moving up. I also agree with the idea of having the first couple sessions to get the bugs out, or in my case, to get loose, after a day on the track the old body doesn't bounce back as quick as I used to. I have seen instructors in the no.1 or 2 novice group on day 2 take the same riders he had the day before and get them up to speed quicker then on day one. The tuff thing is with so many riders only doing one day out of the weekend, you have a lot of riders that are new on day 2, and of the riders who do both days, how many of them are the same level. Also if there are 4 or 5 groups doing parade laps and one group is up to speed thet could couse other problems. You might try going out in the I group with an instructor the to get the feel of it (getting passed and riding a smooth predictable line) Then see if he thinks you're ready to move up. Thats my 2 cents.
Yeah, that was me Marc. I'm not suggesting a group to runs wide open out there, while others are learning the track. I just think that there needs to be more of a 2 day type of learning instead of going back to the beginning on day 2. I was running laps around the 1:43 range, then we were back to well over 2:00 minutes on Sunday. I'm there to learn as much as possible, and doing a parade lap doesn't benefit me on a track that I already know.
I would be strongly against adding a fourth group. You're suggesting that the number of laps each rider gets per session (as well as per day) be reduced by 25%. That's a significant chunk of already limited track time.
My suggestion: Limit the number of total riders in Novice group to 15-20 (actually do this for all groups). With less total riders in the group you'll have more flexibilty in doing something different with selected students and not be too much of a pain for the rest of the people on the track. This might also help with the problem that group #6 faces often - where they seem to spend a good portion of their time moved over on the side of the track to let a faster group pass instead of riding the race line.
I believe the number of riders on the track actually varies depending on several factors - a large track can handle more riders (spread out obviously) than a short track. Limiting the oveall number of riders drops the percentage of riding to zero for those who missed out on getting signed up early enough.... If prices are raised considerably, the laws of supply & demand will take over - but that's no fun... :roll: The bottom line is that track days are getting more and more popular and the number of tracks hasn't kept up with the demand....
One of the best things we did at Reduc was to have the fourth group for racers. This eliminated many of the percieved passing conflicts. Many of those that were riding in advanced were fast enough but were not comfortable with close passing and got all upset when someone came within a few feet. With STT this would move some out of intermediate to advanced and some from novice to intermediate.
These are just general comments and since I do not know your riding skill they are not related to you so do not feel offended. There is no need for 2 novice levels. The first drill for the novice class is slow for a reason. It is to get your brain, body, bike, tires and brakes loosened up and up to operating temps. It is also where you should be: looking at the track condition, for reference points and correcting your head, body, arm and foot positions. So there is lots you can do during the first drill. I teach dozens of novice classes each year and EVERY time I am on the track I am either learning something or practicing something regardless of speed. When I have riders who have taken classes, I tell them to work on what they hate during the first session. This is usually what they are not doing correctly or do not feel comfortable doing. A big part of the novice drills is training your mind to make your body do the proper thing. If you are having a speed issue during the second drill then you maybe in too low of a skilled group and should talk to your instructor, they are best to asses your riding. I have had riders who knew everything and they think should be in the "A" group, but in reality their form, techniques, riding style, lines, corner speed,... was terrible plus they would not listen when we tried to help them. We try to give individual attention when possible, but the whole novice group safety will always comes first. So in the best interest of the class they were not moved As far as passing, this sounds like a skill you need to get comfortable doing. You are not alone and it is pretty common. All the novice groups will probably get passed sometime during the day and most will pass another group so you will get a little taste of it, but this skill is really learned in the "I" group. When you have mastered the novice drills and are ready to move to the "I" group, I would get with an instructor and have them help you with the passing stuff. I wish more of the "I" riders would ask us for help, that is why we are there.
+1 15 minute sessions really stink, IMO. It's amazing what the extra 5 minutes do for a session (and what the extra 10 minutes do during an LED). I always take Helise out for the 2-up session after lunch. These sessions usually run about 15 minutes and end too soon. Just as you start having fun the session is over. My suggestion would be to formalize what a couple instructors did when I was in the Novice group, which was to dispense with the slow sessions Sunday morning for those who attended Saturday (after getting Monte's approval and giving the other instructors a heads up). Granted, you wouldn't be able to run at full speed during the first session when the other groups are doing the left/right/center/race line drill, but as Kozy points out, that is not a bad thing (and almost no one runs full speed during the first session even in the Advance group). From the 2nd session on, however, it would allow 1 or 2 Novice groups to pick up where they left off the day before. Not only would no one lose track time but you would also give people a little added perk/incentive for signing up for 2 days.
Close passing is what makes the Advance group fun (and it is usually inches rather than feet), even for us non racers. It also why STT's Advance group is great for us non-racers who are thinking about racing. I would much rather be passed within inches in the Advance group than within several feet in the Intermediate group, as I have MUCH more confidence in those riding in the Advance group. Adding Intermediate group riders to the Advance group would simply degrade the Advance group (no offense intended), as well as decrease track time (4 groups instead of 3). I also like STT's passing rule for the Intermediate group (i.e., no restriction on inside passes). People have to learn it at some point. In the end, if you don't feel comfortable passing and being passed you're not an advance rider and should not be in an Advance group. Again, no offense intended but if this change were instituted I would look for a different track day provider.
I second this point. As I understand it, the primary criteria for riding in Advanced have always been: 1. the ability to ride smoothly at a consistent, adequately fast pace 2. the ability to maintain smooth, predictable lines 3. the ability to remain comfortable while being passed aggressively and at close range Riders who cannot meet these criteria should remain in the Intermediate group.
I did a day in novice (Actually 1/2 day- I quit after nearly having a heat stroke in 100 degree weather, but I digress) last summer while recovering from my accident. I'd done about 16 track days at that point, and I was very resistant to the idea, but our mother hen :wink: insisted, and so I went along. I felt like that morning was the first time I'd actually learned what was being taught. Suddenly, those drills which had been so tedious, were new and fresh. The lessons became crystal clear, everything from the single gear drill, which previously had been unbearable tedium, to other concepts like steering with the throttle were presented in a new light to me. It all began to congeal, I bonded with the Jinxer for the first time, then I nearly fainted in the first session after lunch, missed a turn and called it a day. I went back to the pits, had someone help me out of my leathers and stood under a cold shower for 20 minutes to bring my core temperature down. My point is don't discount the early sessions, there's valuable information being communicated, fundamental skills being transmitted that will help you as you progress or bite you in the ass if you ignore it, thinking you're doing "parade laps." Bryer, perhaps you're ready to move up to Intermediate as Marc suggests and you've already gotten all that you can get out of it. Work with a coach; just because you're now in I group, doesn't meant that the coaches aren't still there for you. Find one that you like to work with and bug the hell out of them. Ask questions, invite criticism. If you feel otherwise, and decide to stay in novice for another day or two, really pay attention during those early sessions, to the instructor, to your bike and to your body- they're all communicating important information. Most of all, have fun!Cheers, Lance
I agree with both of you regarding passing. The problem is there are always those in advanced that feel other riders should give them more room when passing, yet they won't stay in intermediate. The fourth group for Reduc was restricted to current or ex racers with the idea of no rubbing paint or whining about close passes. It worked well for it's intended purpose. The net effect was really two intermediate classes, which is the class that is usually filled first anyway. Maybe complaining about a close pass should mean automatic transfer back to intermediate? I bet that would be fun trying to enforce
Good rules! As Desmo points out - enforcement would be difficult - but also just agreeing on how to identify the 'crashers' who consistently ride over their heads and/or are 'overly' aggressive... in any group!
It would stop the complaining! Honestly, though, I don't know how much, if any, complaining there is in the Advance group. Monte does a pretty good job at setting people's expectations during the riders' meetings. I've been stuffed pretty aggressively on more than one occasion, but I've only had to change lines/stand the bike up once to avoid a collision/crash. As long as I'm not taken out no harm done (though I did some pretty good cursing in my helmet that 1 time).
When STT does 4 groups it is usually the "I" group that gets broken up into 2 groups. This group has the largest span of riding skills, from riders who should be in "A" to some that should be in "N". I know 15 min sessions are not what I would want as a customer, but if eliminates (or reduces) down time for red flags you might just get most tracktime. Remember the "I" group has a 6 ft clearance between bikes and at some tracks there are limited good passing zones so the riders at either talent limit of the group are probably not having fun. At a track like Beaver Run there are maybe 4 areas where you can pass and meet the 6 ft requirement and since that track is pretty short so the faster "I" riders are lapping some many times a session. By having 2 "I" groups it benefits every group because it reduces the number riders not at the "A" group pace, but who are in because they do not want to deal with slower "I" riders, lets "N" riders move up into a less aggressive "I" group and reduces the talent span in each "I" group.