The best riders in the world are trail-braking right up to the apex, just watch MotoGP this weekend... I just got back from the Yamaha Champ School in Vegas and Nick was very adamant about trail-braking and braking for EVERY corner on the track to set up your geometry for turn in. Its two different schools of thought, but I'd lean towards what the GP riders are doing. They are doing it for a reason...
I agree, it is a good DRILL. We teach it, and I have used it farther than we even teach to learn myself. But when it comes to not trail braking being "the way" around a track (this thread was about no brakes, not about trail braking) I have to dissagree with code. The primary advantage to trail braking in my eyes is lengthening the straightaway. The fast way around a track is spending as LITTLE time slowing down and in the turns. By trail braking you give yourself an extra bit of straight at wide open throttle before you hit the brakes. Ideally you then slow down to the same speed you would have been going had you not trail braked, then back on the gas again. And this is what I tell the students as to why THEY (novice) dont need to trail brake. They shold be familiar enough to use the brakes leaned over if they need to. But not use it to set their corner speeds as we do. It is a RACING tool primarily, that can save your bacon sometimes as monte put it. But the no brakes drill........ is a valid one for learning to judge your entry speed, and ultimately can help improve corner speed some. But there comes a point where it causes an excess of lean angle to be used if you dont turn in HARD......, as well as you dont have the geometry change of being on the brakes going for you.
A lot of you have addressed the why or how about braking itself, but really miss how Code is always referring back to "instinct" and overcoming your survival instincts. I've always seen Code's writing as ways you approach overcoming the limitations that you have in your head. His writing has this spiritual or metaphysical approach where you overcome your mental limitations and be one with the bike and the race track. The no brakes drill subtracts parts from the process of the turn. You're not constantly refocusing your limited amount of mental power to different areas (downshifting and braking). Now you are allowed more mental computing to put towards the sensations of speed and traction. Now you can work on modifying your sense of speed and what is "fast". Now from what I get from reading Keith Code's stuff about trail braking... He has said everyone does it to some extent (which I would assume would be himself too). But his thought is that you need to first master the quick flick turn and setting precise corner speed and entry. If you just resort to trail braking you haven't mastered your ability to execute the corner. Because with trail braking you load the front end and have constant feedback of available tracking from straight up and down, al the way thru to apex. If you used his quick flick method, it would require more mastery of knowing and sensing speed and traction to execute the turn properly. Then once you mastered the quick flick - trail braking would be easy. :shock: - yeah I read a lot in the off season.
It's funny, for someone (KC) who speaks at length about eliminating distractions to concentrate on single aspects of your riding, his actual writing is nothing but one giant distraction. :lol: Like I said when this article was posted on the WERA bbs, Kieth Code, using so many words, to say so little, like no one ever before. If his point is that not using brakes can help you sense corner speed better, then am I alone in wishing he'd just say that!??! All of this metaphysical mumbo jumbo doesn't help those of us not waiting for the mothership. At any rate, I contend that braking going into a corner (including trail braking) shouldn't be such a distraction that it inhibits your corner speed anyway. I very rarely put any thought at all into my braking, because it's a practiced skill that comes naturally. I guess it wasn't always this way, but that goes back to what Monte was saying about skills to practice for novices vs. everybody else. Honestly, the only time I'm really "thinking" about braking is if I have some dramatic brake fade (which isn't so much thinking as it is screaming panicky obscenities), or in the wet (where I'm thinking about doing everything more smoothly).
EXACTLY...I have said that exact same thing many times (well, maybe not as well as you put it, but the idea was the same) That is what I was getting at when I said he is very intelligent and sometimes "over the top". He has so much bullshit with him that when he is done talking, you are like "what in the hell did he just say?".
I am not claiming to be anywhere near Keith Code, but I can be guilty of the same thing in my novice classes :lol. I always tell them if I start going TOO far, and their eyes start to glaze over indicating "we have reached critical mass"........ tell me to SHUT UP :lol
Lurker mostly here so sorry... This is a freaking excellent thread for those of us trying to put it all together. May I ask another question...ok...I'm gonna ask it anyway...When trailbraking do you use any "maintenance" throttle or is the throttle completely closed? I've heard conflicting advice on this.
Yep, completely closed just like when normaly braking. The only difference between "regular" braking and trail braking is that you are braking into the curve. You delay your braking until further into the straightaway so you continue braking after the initial turn in. Then you let off the brakes and apply maintenance throttle. Or, if you brake all the way to apex, you essentially bypass the "maintenance throttle" part and go from braking to rolling on the throttle for exit.
Dont confuse "trail braking" with braking with the rear. A LOT of people think trail braking is braking with the rear brake, and it is not. so if you ARE dont be ashamed or anything. It seemed that might have been the case with the wording of your question though
As far as my simple mind can rationalize things, trail braking has to be the fastest way around the race track (vs KC's method of setting cornerspeed while straight up and down and maintaining it until accelerating after apex. Let say on a given bike/tire, with proper BP etc you can only carry 60mph at the apex of a particular turn. With Keith's reasoning, your speed sequence would look like this... (pretend the first numbers are straightaway, then corner entry...then the bold number is apex...then on the gas hard for exit. I will use 90mph on the straights for easy math) Keith's method = (straightaway) 90...(brake hard and set corner speed at 60mph)...turn-in...60...60...60...60...(exiting)...70...80...90 (straightaway). Utilizing trail braking, it would look more like this... (straightaway) 90...80...(turn entry)...75...70...65...60...(exiting)...70...80...90 (straightaway). Trail braking = more time on the gas...and more speed into/through the corner up to apex. So if Keith is going 60mph from turn entry all the way to apex, while Rider B is going 80 at turn entry, then slowing down while turning and ultimately hitting that same 60 at apex...Rider B would be faster and ahead of Keith. Mathematically, Keith averaged 71.25mph from straightaway to straightaway while Rider B averaged 76.1mph. So mathematically speaking, trail braking has to be faster...at least as far as I can tell.
As far as I can tell, he uses the fact that a harder faster turn in, will allow less lean angle to be used, and ultimately cary more speed mid corner than you will trail braking due to that. Turning in hard and fast cant really be done with trail braking. But doing so will get the change of direction done faster, and from what I understand not compress the bike as much mid corner, and a few other things allowing more speed mid corner due to more available traction. So using the same corner you used above it would be more like........ Keith's method = (straightaway) 90...(brake hard and set corner speed at 60mph)...turn-in...63...63...63...63...(exiting)...70...80...90 (straightaway).
Nope. I understand that rear braking has it's uses as far as settling chassis etc. I believe it's Total Control/Lee Parks that espouses the use of both front brake and throttle at the same time....to keep the suspension "tight". I've done a couple trackdays on my Hypermotard and actually found it sorta useful to do that because it's sooo hard to smoothly pick up the throttle on the big twin. On my ZX-6r I don't even think 'bout it because the throttle comes on very smoothly.
my personal opinion: no rear brake needed at the track. i've raced 6 years, 115 race starts, 50 podiums, 3 championships, and 12 race wins at novice and expert level. never once touched the back brake - ever (except in the pits). matter of fact, i can remember twice coming in after a race and having no rear brakes in the pits until i pumped them up (had wheel change before race) further validating they were never touched. i'd say i'm in the majority of racers when i say no rear brakes. no need to apply brake and throttle simultaneously. that's just damn complicated. i like simplicity. most people do. shut throttle, brake hard (smoothly though), progressively release brake, roll on throttle. that's a corner in a nutshell. others can speak up, but i think i'd be in the majority on that one, too.
The only reference I know of to this, IS usefull. But I dont think it was out of Total Control. Using both to keep chassis dive. That is not the same thing you are talking about though. What I am talking about is say at the end of a long straight, applying the rear brakes first before you roll off the throttle. This limits chassis pitch. It squats the entire bike. then some front as you roll off the throttle simultaneously, Then roll off the throttle as you increase braking pressure. Then let off braking as you increase lean (trail braking) then before you let off the brakes totally, open the throttle slightly first again to limit rear chassis pitch. That is a HIGHLY advanced sequence of events, and is VERY hard to do. I try to do the first half up (I cant get the lsat half accurate enough to not upset the chassis though) until trail braking at the end of long straight that require lots of braking (T10a at Road atlanta for instance). Is that what you are talking about.? That is not the same as keeping the throttle open the entire time you trail brake though
that just sounds whacky to me. i would think applying front brake while still on throttle would increase brake dive. front brake would cause weight transfer to front causing rotation around front wheel loading up forks and lowering front, and applying rotational load to rear causes it to try to climb and rotate the swingarm up increasing the rear. it's like when you're sitting at a light and start a burnout. front brake on, slip clutch. before traction breaks, back end jacks up in the air. i have used the back brake to help the bike squat under braking...but that was on an '89 fj1200...and only on the street. today's sportbikes are nothing like that thing. ....dunno. just sounds weird to me.