Just got back from Barcelona and noticed an overabundance of diesel cars. After calculating the gas prices, I see why :shock: After riding in a few, I was quite shocked on how quiet and smooth they were. I told my wife at one point that we were riding in a diesel and she didn't believe me! Absolutely no difference from a passenger's point of view. Forgot how much of a differnece there was beween US and European deisels until one pulled up next to me this morning in the parking lot. Man, what a load of racket! Granted, this was a 3/4 ton truck, but even the trucks in Spain didn't make that much noise and odor. My main question is why are Diesels so much smoother and quieter in Europe than they are here? They also seemed to have a different exhaust smell as well. Not completely oderless, just different. In fact, I was riding in rush hour traffic there on a bike, and the fumes were pretty bad! Didn't seem to bother any other riders, so maybe it was just the fact of being used to it. Granted, the older diesels were much rougher sounding than newer ones, and there were plenty of those as well. Regular gas also had a different smell through the exhaust. Had a bunch of race bikes around me firing up their engines and it didn't smell the same. Actually worse than in the U.S. A few might have been race fuel, but most were pump gas. Would appreciate it if you could 'dumb down' your response to us folks were barely made it through high school science. :wink:
The diesel fuel used in Europe has considerably less sulfur, which makes it stink less. as for the motors themselves, the Euro's have been investing a lot of r&d into diesel technology over the last thirty years, while the US auto companies, generally have not. GM tried some Diesel Cadilacs in the late 70's/ early 80's but these generally flopped, and diesel development stalled. the quality of diesel fuel is gradually improving in the U.S., but there is still a negative stereotype of diesels being loud, sluggish polluters. the Volkswagen TDI & the BMW Diesels are anything but! Here's a diesel I'd really enjoy:
I have had a VW TDI since 1998. All I can say is that they rock. I have an 02 Jetta TDI Wagon right now it is stage 1 chipped and stills gets low 40's around town and high 40's on the highway. Heck, I tow my trackbike with it and it still gets 40 mpg. Why Americans can't figure this out I have no idea?? :roll: If the US would go to premium diesel (min 50 cetane)or Biodiesel (atleast B2 (2% Biodiesel) or B20 (20%)) all the Euro diesel technology would be viable here in the states. Until then with our crap diesel (min 40 cetane) will not allow those technologies to pass EPA regs. The exhaust smell you notice is the fact that in Europe they use a minimum of B2 (2% Biodiesel), the Biodiesel when burned smells like fryer grease, mmmmm french fries. A plug for the farmers, Biodiesel is made from vegetable oil (either soybean, corn, canola, rape seed, etc) that has gone through a process called transesterification. This is where the glycerine in the oils has basically been replaced by alcohol. In simple terms the oil has been heated, amounts of lye and methyl alcohol are added, this is mixed and the result is a layer of biodiesel and a layer of glycerine (soap). You drain off the biodiesel, filter it, and put it in your car.
Dumb question. But why is diesel still more expensive than gas? Everyone says " It's less refined, it should cost less!" any truth to that?
"If the US would go to premium diesel (min 50 cetane)or Biodiesel (atleast B2 (2% Biodiesel) or B20 (20%)) all the Euro diesel technology would be viable here in the states. Until then with our crap diesel (min 40 cetane) will not allow those technologies to pass EPA regs." Yea, I noticed they had two deisel pumps at every station with unique names. i figured it was a regular/premium thing. I'm not too sure how envormentaly friendly all of that deisel was over there. Sitting in traffic was rather toxic, much more so than here. Probably due to all of the 2-strokes buzzing around (scooter and motorcycle). Lets just say that scooter inspections are not in full force. I do find the statement "If only Detroit would catch up on technology" hard to believe. GM and Ford are very strong in Europe and would have no problems with 'buying' technology for use in the US. In fact, Europe is the only place that Ford is making money. "The exhaust smell you notice is the fact that in Europe they use a minimum of B2 (2% Biodiesel), the Biodiesel when burned smells like fryer grease, mmmmm french fries. " I'm not how true this is, for it didn't smell like french fries AT ALL. Just smelled like a chemical of some sort. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find recycled fryer greese over there, for fried food is only available in McDonalds. Next topic will be road surface conditions. That was an eye opener!
I believe it is the old supply vs demand game being played with diesel prices. From what I have read we are no longer the big dog in consumption, there are other players at the table demanding to be dealt to and willing to pay. Look at world prices for fuel, in the UK they are paying about 1 pound a liter, which works out to about $7.00 per US gallon. At least we are not paying that yet.
Over half a billion families in China and India have purchased their first car in the last 3 years, with more to come. On top of that, electricicty demands have jumped 1000% in those countries. Neither one has domestic oil reserves. I don't know about India, but the Chinese government also subsidizes gasoline. Gas cost about $1.50 a gallon in China, and the government controls the importing of oil/gas. Talk about buying power! However, they also get oil from countries that the US won't touch (officially), like Iran. But more importanly, that deisel bike looked pretty cool. I wonder how it runs?
Rich, Pre-Script: The reason for quiet? What Banks calls the Pilot Injection. Remember the diesel conversation/posts with Papa? A tiny amount of diesel is injected into the cylinder which ignites and settles the piston in the cylinder. A few microseconds later the bulk of the power charge of diesel is injected and because the piston is already settled, makes very little noise. The rattle one hears with the ?older? diesels is the piston moving around in the cylinder, what?s known as piston slap. I imagine the Pilot Injection would allow the piston to have a longer life time too. Gasoline and Diesel are both required to be "cleaner" by law in the European Union. The chemical smell you noticed is most likely from the 2-strokes. I don't know if the European diesels are using catalytic converters but I believe they are and that's the main reason for the cleaner diesel. As far as I know the diesel fuel in Europe is as clean as the gasoline in the US. Why is diesel so expensive in the US? Taxes. All the heavy trucks (18 wheelers) pay for the road tax through the gasoline they use. The highest gasoline tax is about $0.47/gallon and the typical diesel tax is about $1.00/gallon. This is why your home heating oil, kerosene and diesel fuels have different colored dyes added to them. You do not want to be caught with #2 home heating oil in your rig. The cops won't check your diesel Golf so you could save lots of green by filling up from your home heating oil tank. K-1 Kerosene is basically the same as #2 heating oil but much cleaner. If you understand the burned fuel is exhausted outside your house with your furnace and the burned fuel is exhausted INSIDE your house with a kerosene heater, then you can understand why the Kerosene needs to be so clean (low to no sulphur). Why do big trucks use diesel? Because when compared to equal volumes of gasoline it has more energy and produces more torque. Do a search for the Banks Turbo Diesel land speed record truck. Pretty cool. Jay Leno did a piece on the truck for Popular Mechanics. Jay's Garage: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_coll_leno/ Bio-fuels are typically alcohol related, methanol and ethanol and you probably wont see propanol (rubbing alcohol is 70% Propanol, IPA). These are corrosive like you read in various press, the exhausts of these are corrosive. Acids are created during the combustion of these fuels. Its for this reason that Champ Car teams will empty their fuel tanks and run some gasoline through the engine before putting the car away. Cars built for these fuels can use corrosion resistant materials like stainless steel so they can last a reasonable time. of interest: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2690341.html That red truck pulling the trailer IS the Banks Turbo Diesel that went over 222 mph. Towed equipment to the salt, ran the speed, and pulled the equipment home again. http://www.bankspower.com/sidewinder-news.cfm http://www.bankspower.com/tech_TD-fact-Fiction.cfm
Thanks for the tech update Walk, but part of my main question remains unanswered: Why doesn't this more advanced Deisel technology end up in cars/trucks in the US? You can't say it's a money thing, for the per capital average is much less in Spain than it is here. Maybe US emmission lays are stronger in the US? As far as the smell, believe me, I know what 2-strokes smell like :wink: . The odor was from all of the vehicles, which I have to assume was deisel. Being held up in four lanes of tunnel traffic to Barcelona gave me a nice dose of local emmissions :? . We also ran basic gasoline in our bikes and that didn't smell the same either. Not good or better, just different. I don't think Spain has motorcycle catalyic converter laws, for the 2-stroke pipes looked the same as the race bikes. I know in England they're required and look quite a bit larger than the typical skinny stingers that everyone recongnizes.
FYI, a diesel powered Audi prototype race car won the 12 Hours of Sebring this year, & is one of the favorites to win the 24 Hours of LeMans next month. The Sebring race commentators made several comments on how quite the car was for a race car, let alone a diesel, and the lack of smoke for a diesel. They were using a specially prepared racing fuel, but I don't recall any specifics about it.