http://www.alpinesignature.com/index.html According to a post on NESBA, an e-mail from the track stated that all but one permit has been approved for this track. Public hearing is soon and it deals with a "pollution disposal permit", whatever that invovles. Also noted that the track will accomodate motorcycles Alos noted that it is another Alan Wilson design :evil:
Hello Rich, I agree with you on Alan Wilson. I'm waiting for the day when he designs a track that is a four-way clover leaf. I'm afraid we are heading for all super-retard tracks the way it's going.
Blasphemer!!! How can you dis Alan Wilson like that?! The maker of such fantastic tracks like MidOhio, Barber, Beaverun and Miller!! Sure you can whine and cry about his pit-in and pit-out. But those tracks are amazing. I'll happily put up with a tiny bit of hassel getting on and off of them.
Mid-Ohio predates him and Beaverun would be great if it was spread out over another half mile. The way it is, it's like Pocono east with hills. Many seem to like cramped racetracks. Fine for them. I don't. He also has a tendency to show little variety in corners. They're all the same second and third gear corners draped over too little landscape.
not a fan of wilson either. ok- miller looks pretty good, but his good track to bad track ratio is still in the negative. but i'll take any track that's in the tri-state area that's not a roval btw- i don't think he designed mid-ohio. that's a much older design.
The pit in/out is more than just a hassle, it's just plain dangerous. There's already been crashes at BeaveRun's pit out, and I'm sure some at his other facilities. It trully seems like an afterthought. Considering that he has a clean sheet of paper, modern CAD saoftware, and dozens of proven World class tracks for insiration, I would expect a better job. To be fair, these tracks are businesses and I'm sure there's committies of money people involved. I'm not sure how much weight others can throw into his designs, but I'm sure they have an influence. On the other hand, take a look at Shenandoah to see what happens when the owner takes the design into their own hands. As far as gratitide, I give more credit to those who fund and manage these new track projects than the designer. THAT'S the real challenging part of the job.
I've done nearly 150 days on the track and I've yet to hear of an accident involving pit-in or pit-out at any of the events I've been to or read about on forums. Maybe some scares, but nothing that resulted in anything. So really, how bad can the "issue" be? (That's not to say they haven't happened, just that they're not frequent, heck they barely qualify as rare.)
The problem I see with the design of Beaver is that unlike most tracks the pits are on the outside of the track. I'm sure that this was a cost consideration because crossing the track would require a tunnel, bridge or closing the track and driving across it. And I have seen a crash at pit out there. Rich, Where in NE Pa is that proposed new track located? I went to the link you gave but I didn't see a town.
A good read on the WERA board: http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=39162&highlight=Alan+Wilson Even has a reply from Alan Wilson. As expected, he states cost and space have a lot to do with what goes where. Still, i think pit out gets a low priority on design decisions. The PA track is suppose to be near Wind Gap PA, Near Rt. 33 North of Alentown. About 1/2 hour closer to Philly.
Pit in and out can be done differently, an example would be Laguna Seca. Pit in is well before the pits and pit out is well after pit out. There is basically a segregated course paralleling the racing surface which allows racers to be off the fast line while exiting and entering the racing surface. P.S. and as as posted on WERA's BBS, - - Cars are more at risk of putting everyone in danger because the laws of inertia go against the heavier vehicles. Also, if you speak with the race car drivers they will produce the exact same complaints as the motorcycle racers; only, their complaint is more about tearing up the car and less about life altering injuries. I'm certain some others here follow different forms of auto racing and understand this as well. As I see it there is too little emphasis on safety and too much on cramming every last bit of possible track on the available real estate. This is why there are some of the concrete wall-too-close-to-the-track issues at places like Mid-Ohio. The track doesn't own the land beyond the wall (in some cases) and the wall isn't there for safety but to keep errant vehicles off other's property.
Just found this thread... Ask Dutch about Pit-Out Crashes at BeaveRun..... He's seen plenty. Barber... The Pit-In is one of the worst in the USA. Wilson should have to drive through that POS on the way home every night. Miller - The full track Pit Out is going to eventually kill someone when they hit a barrier wall at triple digits and the East track Pit Out is just plain stupid and dangerous. You shouldn't have to stop and hide behind a barrier wall at the edge of he racing surface. A GOOD pit out (Mid-Ohio is an EXCELLENT example as is Infineon and Road America and Lagun Seca.... ALL non-Wilson designs BTW)) allows a rider/driver to match speed with the flow and BLEND into traffic. It doesn't toss you into a high speed sketchy situation well below the speed of the on-course traffic. Alan Wilson has to make pit-in/pit-outs that must serve two courses from a central pit, this is why his designs are sketchy. I don't know what his excuse for Pit-In at Barber was..... I'm surprised Mr. Barber accepted that configuration. I've ridden about 50 tracks total so I have a good base from which to judge.
Monte, is your goal to get us banned from all of the Wilson designed tracks? If so, I'll need to move to Europe to get my fix.
Good, cause you had me worried there for a bit ;-) I find it strange that Wilson seems to be the only source for track design in the US. I kno whe has no say in teh ownership and mangement, but it sounds like he has a monopoly on the business. You don' think he'd ever say "Sorry, i won't design your track if you plan to rent it to STT, cause Monte keeps bad mouthing my pit in/out designs."
Wilson must have the China GP circuit too. Consider that MotoGP won't go to Barber (because there's no high speed section amongst others {?}). It must be because (as Mike Duzick says) he crams too many turns in too little a space.
China's circuit was designed by politicians who thought it would be 'cool' the make the layout look like a Chinese character (can't remember which one) Shanghi is a perfect example of trying to spend too mcuh money and failing in the process. To put a 1st. gear hairpin at the end of a 1 mile straight is just plain stupid. MotoGp will never go to Barber, period. I seriously doubt World Superbike will either. Pretty place, but FIM is not going to run a circuit that tops out at 4th. gear. Laguna is bad enough for the GP bikes, maybe 5th gear at the front straight for a split second? And then there's the marketing aspect: Alabamie is just not gonna get the draw that's needed for such an event. Ditto for Salt Lake City.
I hope you're wrong on this one.... I would really love to see MMP take over from Laguna. If Utah can host the Olympics, it should be able to handle a yearly race event.
Speaking of Laguna (which I have a love hate relationship with) I think what’s wrong in Wilson’s and many others, designs is a lack of character. It seams to me that when you give a guy some whisky and a grader you tend to get a more exciting track. Ok so some times they give us dangerous excitement, Sears turn 4 (pre Nascar bypass) for example but these are also the tracks with intriguing idiosyncrasies that burrow into my noggin. I like quirky tracks that scare the #@%! out of me. That being said I still would rather see MMR get the Motogp money as opposed to a motorcycle hate’n “organizationâ€. I’m sure I wasn’t the only one not surprised by scramp’s lack of professionalism. Golly if it’s not F1 who’s gun ‘a show up? Whish we had Assen. Well, I guess they got to that one too.
I strongly suggest that every race fan make the pilgramiage to a MotoGP track in Europe or Asia. The difference is unbelieveable. You understand right away why most of the riders don't like Laguna. It's not the hotels or the traffic, it's the track layout and safety. "That being said I still would rather see MMR get the Motogp money as opposed to a motorcycle hate’n “organizationâ€. I’m sure I wasn’t the only one not surprised by scramp’s lack of professionalism. " Yea, but keep in mind, Laguna Seca is owned my the Monterey County parks commission. And like every other government organization, it's runned by elected officials who are not paid that well (by corporate management standards). Damn shame, but how many local parks commisions run their own GP track? I can't imagine my county government getting a parking lot paved on time and under budget. I agree that SCRAMP is pushing their luck with MotoGP. Last year's event was a joke, not so much for the spectators, but for the actual racers! How many tracks in the calendar last year had major chunks of pavement coming off the surface? That place needs to re-invest some those millions back into the facilty, get some decient run-off, new garages and bring in a paving crew from Spain! I know it's a tax revenue source for the county, but loosing their biggest event of the year is not going to bring in any money! Now if only I could figure out a way to do a track day there . . .
Good luck. I lived in the bayarea for 8 years and only got on that track 3 times. The only way to get a bike on that track besides an AMA/FIM event is to take a Keith Code Class. They won't allow any two wheeled clubs or track day organizers on it. Yes it's county run but it goes deeper then that. You definately get a bad vibe from that organization. But I've felt that at a lot of other tracks as well. I'm about 5 years out of date on left coast tracks but I'm sure it's still the same.