Not sure what events you attend, but you'll get even better advice if you come talk to somebody about it in person, you can only say so much in text, to really explain trail braking I need a clipon and brake lever handy I'm sure any of the staff would be willing to help you out or atleast direct you to the "local expert" that can go into detail, but if you come to Road America May 4th feel free to find me or any of STT's excellent staff members and we'll talk. I'll be on a green kawasaki #513 (if mr gkotlin comes through with my numbers by then lol)...
My next event will be Little Tally on May 27th. I also hope to possibly do a school this year too. I did Jason Pridmore's STAR school last year and loved it but haven't decided on that yet though. I'll be sure to ask one of the instructors at Little Tally though.
I prefer the quick turn to trail braking myself. I have seen both and worked with Nick and Ken from the yamaha champs school on trail braking but it never felt quicker. I will stick with quick turn and using the gas to turn the bike like it likes to be turned. I would rather not overload the front tire.
Those two guys preach trail braking a lot. Please tell us (me) more about the quick turn. I understand using the throttle to turn a dirt bike or a quad, but the track and asphalt? Scary. I'm curios about the timing of a quick turn verses trail braking. Braking into the corner, the forks compress and slowly trailing off the brakes as the force of turning helps compress the forks. Then rolling on the gas at the apex. Where would you gas it in relation to the apex. This is a great thread as I have just begun to trail brake this spring.:thumb:
Not sure what you're suggesting. I spoke to trail braking and it's affect on front end grip (that's what this thread is about), I did not discuss cornering force or lean angle, but that doesn't mean I said they had nothing to do with front end grip. Well that's definitely another strategy, just not something I'm comfortable suggesting. If it works for you, then it works The way I see it, all the really fast guys, stoner, lorenzo, rossi, and all other world class riders trail brake deep into the corners and are silky smooth on turn in. They do it, so I do it too. I figure they know better than anyone else how to go fast with as little risk as possible. YCRS also uses this philosophy, they teach what the champions do, and they openly discount the quick turn in method as more risky and less effective. And who am I to disagree with them, I don't have any national or world championships under my belt like they do
I'm not talking spinning the rear, it's what we teach in our novice group and it's what Keith code teaches. The bike turns quicker off the brakes and opening the throttle helps the bike turn. You do know with the carbon brakes on a gp bike they really can't trail, the brakes are pulled as hard as possible and the heat makes them slow faster so as they turn in they have to let off otherwise the brakes are still full on as they were in the straight.
Anyone notice how late Hayes trail braked into the last corner passing Blake, in Superbike race 1? You could see where he released the brake lever. Impressive.
If u want to trail break learn from this guy. I don't thing anyone here can do it like him. Watch and learn . Check out this video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWyrZhArYI&feature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPhone
I could talk riding all day long, but people stop listening around page 8 I haven't even mentioned trail braking benefit of shortening the bikes wheel base and allowing the bike to turn tighter with the same MPH. If you are opening the throttle while turning the bike you are extending the forks and making the bike longer, thus increasing the radius required at a given MPH.
The difference between the two is riding style. The quick turn is for more if you ride it like a 250. The only problem I have found with trail braking is that it makes the bike way harder to turn in, as in the bike wants to stay upright. This is all going to come down to personal preferance in riding style. Thanks for the pic, I was trying to find one but couldn't.
I don't believe you answered my question in the above quote. All I want to know is if these forces exist and do they have any effect on traction . For instance : can u lock up a front tire while braking with the bike straight up ? Answer YES Therefore with added force from cornering and lean angle is it not easier to lock up the front wheel while breaking ? Yes !
Yes of course, but how is that any different trail braking or not, either way you have limits to traction. I would argue the limits on traction is dependant on; pavement type, tire type, tire pressure, tire temperature, track temperature, tire age, tire condition, tire thickness, track condition, lean angle, braking or accellerating force, suspension (damping, travel, where in the stroke you are, spring rates, etc), and many other factors, I didn't bring all those up either, but do they matter? Of course they do. Are you familiar with Nick Ienatsch, "point" system for tire traction? He bases traction on a 100 point system. You always have 100 points of traction available, 100 is equal to the maximum traction for a given set of conditions. You can ask of your tire 100 points without loosing grip, 101 and you start to slide.... Ok, so lets say you can either use 100 points for turning (max lean angle) or 100 points for braking (maximum braking before the tire locks up). Now, alternatively you can use 80 points for turning and 20 points for braking, this is trail braking... Ideally you start straight up and down with 100 of your traction points going towards braking, now as you start to tip the bike in you slowly start to release the brakes, at initial turn in lets say you are at 80 braking points and 20 turning points.. Now as you approach the apex you continue to release the brakes and lean the bike over until you are using 0 braking points and 100 turning points, then as you come out of the corner you start to take away turning points (lean angle) as you roll onto the throttle (accelleration points). By the time you are straight up and down you have 100 points available for acceleration grip. The reason this is a good way to think about traction because you never really know how much traction is available to you, there are too many factors, using this point system the same rules apply regardless of what your actual traction might be, 100 points is the maximum traciton avalable regardless of conditions. The key then, is to sneak up on that 100 point mark slowly through smooth controlled inputs, if you get to 101 points, and you just start to feel the bike start to slide you can correct by standing the bike up just a little bit or backing out of the throttle or brakes just a little bit, however if you grab a fist full of throttle or brake and get to 140 points, the bike will be gone before you have time to react and you will crash. Again, I can go on for days so I'll stop here
sorry bro, not true. it may require more effort if you cary speed further into the corner but because of the effects on the chassis, it makes the turn in easier.