The first time you missed where I said the bike wants to stay upright. This could also be due to me having the bike set up to not trail. I have tried both methods mentioned and been through a class with Nick and Ken. It just doesn't suit my riding style, everyone is different that is why there are about 30 different riding schools teaching different stuff. The keith code style fits me better.
Turn 2 at Barber for me is a good example of how trail breaking can not only steer the bike,settle the chassis,and enable you to get back on the gas quicker....coming out of one,you're on the gas,charging T-2,that happens to be off camber going up,I charge T-2,trailbrake basically to the top of the corner because the front will get light,you will loose directional stability,control if you don't,not to mention,if you get on the gas too early there w/o trail braking,you'll extend the forks that's why you see so many tucks there. The big hang-up with trail braking is some people don't know that,even if you're applying 5% brake pressure...you're trail braking.
the bike wants to stay upright at ALL times. havent you ever seen a guy fall off his bike and the bike straighten up and keep going? i have never heard that trail braking makes a bike harder to turn in. i also know trail braking assists turn in from my own experience. who taught you that trail braking makes a bike harder to turn in?
Myself, I said I have tried and still use it on random occasions. I will say it again, it doesn't fit how I ride. Apparently trail braking is the only way to ride so excuse me for not using it.
turn 11 is another example. yesterday when i was there (if i missed my apex or got in too hot into t11) i would have to drag the front brakes a little to get the bike to change directions because the sterring was too heavy. trail braking there is not needed, dropping the front solved this.
ease up partner, just trying to keep the waters from getting too muddy. maybe you should try it again ....everyones doing it :grouphug:
I was just busting you balls on the last part. Guessing your from the south, if I make a trip down I'll hit you up for some pointers.
well, me too. im actually from illinois and will be riding with stt quite a lot this year. hit me up anytime! :cheers:
When trail braking is done correctly (smoothly), it will allow a bike to turn in easier. Stabbing the brakes will make the bike want to stand up.
This is at least partially due to the fact that by compressing the forks, you are making the rake steeper and reducing trail. These geometry changes generally will make the bike easier to turn.
I worked w nick at mid Ohio personally and have never heard him state that releasing the front brake caused the bike to under weight the front end and cause the situation u mentioned earlier. I have however heard him state Too much brake pressure is no beuno while trail braking. Which is why I asked u about the forces involved. Bottom line its safer to quick turn the bike and be on the gas early as possible . Proper throttle control aids traction by transferring weight to the Largest contact patch and allows the suspension to work in its most compliant range . Trail braking weights the front end compressing the forks and placing the load on the smaller contact patch. Do pros trail brake ? Yes some do . Have lap records been set without trail braking Yes Trail braking is a difficult skill to master and when done incorrectly has proven to be costly to the rider.
What are you referring to when you say quick turn in method? I've done 2 novice days with STT and never heard that, maybe I wasn't listening closely enough either.
I'd like to know who among the "pros" does not trail brake and what lap records were set by who? ..without trail braking?
Nick, Ken Hill, Scott Russell and the rest of the YCRS team would strongly disagree with just about everything you said. They are definitely on the trail braking side of the argument however... But to be fair, they are championship holders and coach many world class riders, I'd assume they know what they're talking about. Ken Hill said "quick turn is is more risky, less effective, and slower". He also said in their research many more people crash from an underloaded front tire than an over loaded front tire. They demo this point by doing a two up ride, tons of lean angle + tons of braking force, on street tires. Did we crash? no. Scott Russell agreed and said everybody in the national and world level uses trail braking, you absolutely can not ride at that level without it. Nick Ienatsch said the idea that all of your braking needs to be done straight up and down is a myth that is killing our sport and our riders. It's his (strong) oppinion that this misinformation is responsable for many many accidents and he is leading an initiative to change the way motorcycling is taught and change how many riders think of how to use the brakes. He is currently working to change MSF instruction and working with a number of other motorcycle safety organizations to get the word out. You trail brake every time you drive your car, why should the bike be any differnet? Fact is trail braking keeps your front tire loaded properly for more grip, it reduces the radius required to turn, it makes turn in easier, it allows the rider to safely adjust their line without input to the suspension, and the risk is very low when properly applied. There really isn't anything difficult or mysterious about trail braking, I do not believe it is an advanced skill reserved for the ultra fast, it is proper technique in my oppinion that every rider should use. As for your comments about the benefits of quick turn in, I believe them all to be inaccurate. Quickturn in first upsets the suspension, any quick input to the bike will, smooth is king, You state getting on the gas as early as possible aids in turning, it does not, getting on the gas extends your fork tubes, lengthens the bike, and makes it harder to steer and increases the radius required at a given MPH, or if you'd rather decreases the MPH required to make a turn of a given radius (it's slower). Next you say it's safer by moving the weight to the largest contact patch. This is LESS safe because you're decreasing the weight on the front tire making the front more likely to tuck. Try saving the bike after you loose the front, it's significantly scarier than sliding the rear a tad. Last, you state "some" pro's trail brake. I'd encourage you to find a single one that doesn't And no, picking a rider from 1985 doesn't count :jester:
This can be compensated for with shock changes, such as a heavier rate spring to keep the back end from squatting and extending the front end.