I've ridden with many organizations and STT is truly the best at what they do. I've been at events with STT where there have been a few asshats and they have been dealt with according to their stance and attitude (being argumentative and not owning up to their mistake is just stupid and asking for touble). I've ridden with other organizations that don't do enough about asshats and people are seriously hurt. Some people just don't get it and continue to ride crazy ... they are removed and should be by STT. If they are not removed, STT carries the burden of not ejecting that person after warnings and then another rider is seriously hurt. If I was that injured person I would certainly have something to say to STT as to why they weren't removed. Yes we all take a risk going on the track but you certainly don't expect to put up with people that think they are above the rules and intentionally ride like an asshat. I'm not talking about a genuine mistake ... it happens. I'm talking about the very few asshats that ruin the true spirit of track riding for the rest of us
Great responses all around... @mastermindtrev ,being smarter and having more experience (did I butt kiss well?) Was able to elaborate better. Attitude is everything If you are the offending party. Every situation I'd different and will be handled accordingly.
God forbid any of us from going down and getting hurt or hurting someone else. That being said it is part of the risk we take during a trackday/race/spirited mountain ride etc.. I had a guy whom I was setting up for a pass go down right in front of me this weekend and I managed to avoid him by cm's! Now if I would have gone down due to him taking me out, target fixating on him or some debris on track than it would certainly have killed my track buzz. I fully understand that this is part of the game and always look to minimize risk by ensuring safe passes, following a rider for a corner or two to study them prior to making a move (we are not racing so there is no need to be so quick to get around someone and risk making a mistake). In Advanced the passes are closer, but safer too..
The truth is: Accidents happen. Everybody who's ever ridden with STT Southern knows T's "Ok, If you've never ridden on track, close your eyes.." bit. So we all know we take the risk of a) being in a crash or b) causing a crash. Really, it all comes down to what the rider causing the crash was doing to cause it, if there had been any warnings, what the staff/corner workers saw, and most importantly, how the rider causing the accident ACTS following. Now, the polite thing is for the rider causing the accident to at least go apologize, and consider offering to help the offended rider either get back on the track or help with the repair, but there shouldn't be much expectation that will happen. However, if you DO make that promise, make sure you honor it. After all, everybody signed the waiver and clearly knows the risks. One of the reasons why control riders circulate on the track is to try and spot unsafe riders (both intention and unintentional) and either talk them down, help them recognize and take action to become safe, or get them off the track before they hurt themselves or others. P.S. Trevor can be pretty intimidating, especially when he gets quiet and the veins start popping out on his forehead But he's also a reasonable fellow...
I have been on the receiving end of this situation twice in the span of just over a year. At Road Atlanta at pretty high speed, a sudden line change from right side of a straight to the left side took out my front tire and I was than along for the ride. I walked away but the bike is still in pieces. This was in Novice group during the point to pass drill and the rider was 3rd in line so should not have been changing line at all and should have been following the group instructor. I was circulating as normal so I could check out the various groups and see how they were doing. This is pretty clearly the other rider doing something they should not have done (it was also directly discussed in a previous class room session about changing lines). In this case, the other rider did not step and confess to the accident. Even though they did not go down, they had to know that they hit someone and on the next lap would have seen me standing by the inside wall just down the track from a destroyed motorcycle. The second time was at Tally a couple of months ago. Again, in Novice group, I was taken out at the apex of a turn by a rider making an inside pass. Again it was the 3rd session of the day only this time I was leading another rider around 1 on 1. The rider was in the classroom and was told very clearly no inside passing. It's even in bold and a brighter color than any other line in the power point slides that I use in the class. So in both cases it was a case of another rider not following the rules and doing something stupid that could have caused serious injury. I got very lucky in both cases to not get seriously hurt. I suffered a mild concussion in the Road Atlanta crash and bruised my bad knee in the Tally crash. After both crashes I was very angry because there was nothing I could have done to avoid them short of simply not riding. At Road Atlanta, the other rider never fessed up or apologized. Yes, I could have gone on a hunt and probably found out who did it, but to what end? At Tally, both of us crashed so there was no escaping, however the other rider was very apologetic. So Road Atlanta, I left the track still pretty mad and with a very messed up bike and no closure because no apology. Tally, I left only annoyed because it happened again but since the other rider apologized and acknowledged that they made a mistake, I was able to just let it go. It probably helped that the bike was not destroyed, only some cosmetic damage that could be fixed with zip ties, but even then the apology went a long way towards making me feel better. I accept that there is a risk in what we do and being taken out by another rider is probably my biggest worry. As long as I walk away from the crash, it's all good, but the offending party needs to step up and acknowledge the crash and apologize. I don't ask for more than that. Would it have been nice is the rider at Road Atlanta not only apologized, but offered to help with the cost of fixing the bike, sure, but I do not expect it. I know for my part, if I did something stupid and crashed someone else, I would certainly step and acknowledge that I did it and apologize and see what I could do to help the other rider. I tend to ride pretty cautiously when I am close to another rider on track so that I won't make a mistake and take another rider out. I do not make close passes or try to stuff another rider in a turn. It's a track day, not a race. I've certainly had my share of crashes at the track, but aside from the 2 above, I have not been involved with another rider and all of them have been my own fault due to lack of talent or whatever. It happens.
Did anyone in the N group get warned? I was riding at a decent pace on Saturday and someone passed me on the inside a couple of times and I know that it was closer than 6'. It surprised me mostly. Another rider in N told me that he felt like he had a few people pass him that they should not have. For future reference, Should we come off the track and report that to a coach, or approach that other rider ourselves?
Well as the OP for this thread I didn't provide details because I was trying to get a general answer to a general question. I never even considered an intentional incident, for which I would expect severe consequences. I am asking about an honest mishap. Here is what made me bring this up... This is at Tally in I group...I was hauling butt out out of turn 1 on the right side of the track, probably right at 100mph. There was a (much) slower rider about 1/2 way down the straight going towards the bowl, he was far-left on the track, which is definitely off the line. I planned to pass him on his right side which would leave me set up for the bowl. Just as I was about to pass him, he swerved from the far left side to the far right side of the track, right in front of me, my front wheel right beside his rear wheel, and I am now inches from running off the track. I lift my rear wheel, he goes on and no harm is done. I doubt that he even knew this happened. I could say that he made a very unpredictable move, and it was his fault. He could say that I was at fault because I would have hit him from behind. I am not asking who would have been at fault here, just what the etiquette would be if it had not turned out so well. On 2nd thought, I would like to hear opinions of who would have been at fault here. This is a great conversation by the way.
Yes, I warned a couple in the N group and several in the I group. Just mention it to a coach and we'll keep an eye on them. It's hard for us to see everything that happens. If you feel someone is being unsafe definitely let one of us know asap.
If you feel uncomfortable with how another rider is behaving then by all means let us know.. it's hard to watch everyone all the time so if some one specific needs to be looked at we can only do that when told about it. Talk to any coach who will in turn talk to the director. A coach will then watch the rider and only talk to them if needed.
As far as I know, no one is liable for another person's damages or medical expenses. STT or any other organization won't play middle-man in finances and it is part of the agreement you sign before every track day at registration. I go to a trackday knowing that my bike might not come back in one piece and am comfortable with that - I'd rather my body and those around me be safe. Material items are replaceable and if you can't afford that loss then you can't afford trackdays to begin with; at least that's how I look at it. Or just go at a slower pace that you're comfortable with - you don't need to be fighting the lap record to have fun. But if someone caused me to crash then I would just hope for an apology and be ok with that. Frankly, if you don't have health insurance then I wouldn't advise doing this sport to begin with and I wouldn't expect the other person to help out even if it was their fault. The only times I have had "oh-shit" moments from myself and others is under hard braking on the inside. Sometimes it's difficult to judge exactly when you or another person will brake and when you're hard on them, it can be difficult to change your line. I have had this happen to me many times on turn-in and usually the person or myself waves an apology and I give them a nod and we're having fun again - no hard feelings. Just have fun and be safe. If these issues keep continuing with the same individual, then it would be wise to approach a staff member before it leads to an incident.
Always Always let a Coach know or a Lead Instructor.... Never handle it yourself... You guys pay good money to ride our events and there is no reason to take things like this in your own hands... Always tell us a description.. point them out if possible... and let us work it out ASAP... We normally tell everyone this in the Novice meetings but since this was a 1 off free weekend there was no REAL novice class...
Well stated on everyone's part! I was stuffed last weekend on T1.......and when I came out of T1 he had slowed down and waved an apology and let me lead. He knew he was wrong. We continued to ride with no issues. Funniest part was later in the day he (wont mention any names) was sitting beside me and said " you ride that so and so bike?" I replied "Yeah...why?" He extends his hand to shake mine and says "I am truly sorry I stuffed you in T1......was not my intention. It wont happen again.....I'm really sorry!!!" We spoke briefly about the turn, our entry speeds, and what lines we were carrying........ I laughed...he laughed...it was great time! Owning up is hard for some people.....but we all know its the right thing to do. Even a simply hand shake and apology goes a very very long way.
We're getting off topic here, but OK i"ll play. So you are going to pass a guy in a straight, and suddenly he jerks across the track and you both go down. Tell me how you could have passed this guy "safer".
It's your job to anticipate the other guy's moves when you're setting up the pass. You were the one that said the race line is on the right...so is it really that surprising that he came over to the right?
Was he just coming out of the grid and blending in? Many times I got green light to enter the track while there were riders coming down into turn 1, I had to be careful blending and looking behind that the speed difference and my line will not cause a problem. I would still not go directly to race line (cross the entire track) but go to about the middle of the track until I get to turn 2, where I join the race line and the pace of everyone else, but I could see in "I" someone getting the go ahead and crossing the entire track to the race line without looking back...
By the way, my question on damage cost was more on "etiquette" than "protocol", I understand that we sign a waiver and everyone is responsible for their own ride. Of course I'd expect an apology or give an apology, I was wondering how far would people go in case of shit happens.
Prefaced with this is just my opinion, expect the unexpected. If you would have expected him to come over to set up for the bowl you could have avoided this. If you were coming onto the straight and saw him halfway down it going slow and not on the line I see no way you wouldn't expect that he would eventually come over to set up for the turn which would make it your fault because you are responsible for the rider in front of you. You should have slowed your pace, let him take the line and then pass on the exit of the turn if you were that much faster. I'm not going off on you but it was your mistake to believe he wouldn't come over to the right to set up unless he had his hand up and staying off the line on purpose. The good thing is that no contact was made and it was just an "oh shit" moment for you. Take this as a lesson learned and if it makes you feel any better, I've had a couple of those myself. I've learned to NEVER try to pass someone without observing them, even just for a turn or two. Always better to pass with absolute confidence, that's the safe and respectful thing to do.