Thanks Trevor (and other directors) that have to wear the badge in situations like these. It can't be a fun job, when you've got two red-faced Mohicans up in your grille. In my opinion, this is where a director's sense of responsibility, fair-play and enthusiasm for the sport all need a careful balance. I'm really glad that STT has such a great team of directors. If we love the sport, we have to understand that there have to be some hard lines drawn. The policy about causing a crash and being asked to leave is absolutely necessary... and then the director's judgement can be exercised if the situation warrants moderation on the policy. I've also been executing a safe pass when the rider in front takes a VERY unusual line, giving me an oh-shit moment. Unfortunately, the policy must remain that the rider in front has the line. After that, it has to be honor and politeness. Life is so much better with honor and politeness, right?
I agree it would have been my fault since I was behind. Like I said, he probably doesn't know to this day that it even happened. But it does emphasize why you don't do something unexpected.
I agree 100%, no doubt about that! You should always ride your own ride and be consistent and predictable. Here's where it's important to remember that you are responsible for the rider in front of you, shit happens! I'm sure in your case that the rider had no idea that you were coming up on him. While we all know the rules, we all are still capable of making mistakes so being mindful of that is the key. That's what I've learned this past year and I hope a lot of riders read this thread so they can learn it without the "oh shit" moments. We are all here for the same reason and need to respect one another out there. Shit can always happen but we can reduce the percentage of it by being consistent, courteous and patient. Ride on my fellow track junkies and hope to ride with you all soon!!!
TLR67 (Marc), You mean I can't be Rossi? Three different comments: I had a wreck at NCM turn 8 with MCRA, second session out in 40 degree weather didn't work out well for me, even only riding about 80% of the pace I normally ride at. Luckly my sliding across the track bike didn't take anyone else out! if it did, I would understand being done for the day, I would feel really bad about it and probably not even want to ride the rest of the day. I would apologize to the person but I'm not sure I would offer financial help. It would be nice but that could make for a very expensive day. I probably would if I felt I was acting like a ass hat and tried to make a questionable pass and took them out but if it was a lowside and they crashed into my bike after I already crashed I'm tore on that answer. I would at least apologize. A couple times this year I've been passed on the inside by someone and have been touched. It's a interesting feeling getting touched by someone else on a bike at 80-120 MPH. To me that was slightly unacceptable for a track day. I understand I ride with a bunch of racers in Advanced but please don't touch me at 120 MPH. The relevant point is, if I wrecked because of someones being overly aggressive to the point they touch me during a inside pass I'm going to be very mad and hope they at least can't ride for the rest of the day. We all follow or should follow the, "don't track a bike you cant afford to leave in the dumpster at the track". A track bike is eventually going to be crashed and in need of repair. As expensive as this sport is, it's still cheaper than track racing cars. Here's a different prospective to the above, we all agree the guy with the wheel in the front going into the turn owns the turn. Say I get passed by a guy late braking me on the inside going into the turn, we both tip in and lay the bike over, he touches me because he squeezed the bike into the corner instead of waiting for a cleaner pass, I crash. Whos fault is it? I'm always so hesitant on passing people, sometimes I find myself following behind people for a lap or two just to get a safe pass in. I hate clearly being faster than someone through the tight stuff, getting fright trained (1000cc bike) on corner exit and then catching them before the next turn because they accelerate and hold at a speed instead of accelerating the full straight. It makes for a hard pass but I rather hotpit and be safe than do anything risky that may hurt myself or someone else. I always try to give room and make safe passes. I'd like to hope I never cause someone else to crash but anything can happen on a race track. I witnessed a wreck at NCM right beside me in OCT and I'm sure the guy partially felt I had something to do with it but it was him not paying attention, not me at all. We came off track at the end of the session, coming off hot pit into paddock this guy was a couple feet in front of me on my right. He glanced left as if he was preparing to turn left right in front of me, I took note of his helmet movement and stopped my bike to avoid him turning into the path that I was driving, I was basically stopped but still balanced on the pegs. he turned left infront of me and as soon as he saw I was there he grabbed his front brake and dumped the bike right infront of my bike. I felt bad but it was him not paying attention and if I wasn't thinking ahead he would of turned and ran right into me. I saw the guy later that day while going out onto hotpit and he shuck his head at me. I'm not sure if it was because he was embarrassed he made a mistake and dumped his bike or if he somehow thought I had anything to do with his mishap. I think he came off track all pumped up and wasn't paying attention (aware) of his surroundings. I must say though, NONE of these incidences happened at a STT event. It seems people are alittle less aggressive at STT events than they are on race weekend track day events.
If its not been said yet, at EVERY Northern region event I attended last year with Gunshow Nick as the man in charge, he says in EVERY riders meeting, "If you cause a crash, you are done for the day, period." I did 11 or 12 events last season and he said it every time.
This is a tough call but look at it this way... He passed you on the brakes, you know this because you see it which means he has the inside line and a wheel in front already. Why would you tip in vs. just giving him the place and waiting an extra fraction of a second before turning in yourself (at which point you can follow the faster rider and learn something from them)??. When a faster rider late brakes me and shows me a wheel I slightly back off, alter my turn in point and continue on following them. I If he touched you while passing you and caused you to crash that's different..
this is always a risk that we accept when we sign our waiver. The biggest thing is how the person that caused the incident handled it, if they are a dick about it or if they truly did just make a mistake. I caused a crash this year at a wera event, 100% my multiple mistakes that caused it, first thing i did was go over an appologize, second was offer to pay for repairs on the bike or even medical if needed. Its not a fun situation, it sucks extremely bad. I've had some close calls at td's but they were just that close calls & if i feel i've passed someone too close i make it a point to seek them out (thats why we have the pit bikes ya know ) and appologize. I've also had ppl bump into me and not say a word. Just be cognizant of others out there and have fun. Oh and its always been policy that if you cause a crash whether intentional or not that the director may or may not pull your sticker for the day or worst case what T explained.. and no one is immune from that no matter what..
Agreed, it all comes down to being responsible for your actions... Hell you passed me super close once and I apologized to you... My boot slipped of the lame excuse for an OEM peg and I went wide into your path... It could have resulted in a crash but we both maintained best we could and made it out alive.
JOSH: If you are being touched, you need to tell the staff about it. I've been riding since 09 and I've never been touched by another rider on the track. That's just not acceptable, even in Advanced. Oh, and don't anybody get the bright idea to do it it to me for fun...I might just explode
I actually feel safer closer to people than further away... I know it sounds strange but its not uncommon in Advanced to rub some elbows and legs every now and then.....
Actually it's not really a tough call. What you are saying is correct, but there's more to it because not all passing situations are such that the rider being overtaken is going to see the passing rider before he leans in like you are describing. The rider being passed could already be leaned into the turn when a faster rider comes through. Actually this is really common at a trackday where the rider being overtaken might not be on the optimal race line. The overtaking rider shouldn't cause the other rider to have to alter his/her line. You pass somebody and they are able to continue on the line they had chosen = good pass. You pass somebody and they have to alter their line after they had already leaned into it = bad pass, even in Advanced group. If the overtaking rider is ahead and the rider being passed has to wait a split second longer to turn in (which is what you're saying above) that's okay. It's just my opinion, but I think it's a clear way to define what is an acceptable inside, or outside, pass.
That I understand and agree with but in his post he stated that the rider "passed" him on the brakes which to me means the overtaking rider was passed enough that he should be able to see him at that point (the good pass scenario). What you are describing is him already being leaned over, committed to the turn THAN someone attempting to make the pass (the bad pass scenario).. Bad Pass = no no.. Good Pass = passing rider may have to alter or wait.. I think we agree either way, just looking at it differently (yet the same )
I dont disagree, and I had an excellent time @NCM. But a few years ago, I was @ Putnam, and we had 13 red flags, I personally reported 2 people for infractions that caused me to jump out of my suit, and (I think) a staff member was stripped of his jersey that day. Also with another organization, last year I had a guy hunt me down, "because it was fun to fight with me, cause I was fast novice". My point was to just make Trevor's tough decisions easier. I wasnt ensenuating it was a ufc fight out there.
It happened twice running with MCRA, I guess those guys all have a race license and like to be touchy feely. Who knew? Lol
My first 2 track days were with MCRA (novice) and I didn't know anything! My third track day was with Midwest Track Days, what a difference and I got bumped to I group, it was awesome! My fourth track day was again with MCRA @ NCM for the first motorcycle track day for that track. That was my worst experience track day riding to date! Red flags, over aggressive riders breaking the rules blatantly, and no control whatsoever. By Sunday afternoon I decided to leave after having a fruitless conversation with the MCRA's track director. My last words to him were "I vote with my track time dollars" and I haven't ridden with them since. Sport Bike Track Time is where I've decided I belong because they pay attention to the fact that we are customers. Some of us are racers but most of us are sport bike enthusiasts who do this for fun (that's me) and there's room for us all as long as we are respectful of each other. I've been fortunate to not have had any crashes yet (knock on wood) and I hope to keep it that way.