watch this amazing display of balancing grip and slip on a street bike: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153048795976743 Is their a safe way to learn to ride a grip/slip balance on a streetbike like this without dying in the process? I'm very fast in a car, in my corvette I can dance all over the grip/slip limit. So well that I win national scca events. It's second nature to me and I can drive at that limit while remaining very calm and relaxed. This has came with the fact of doing 20+ events a year for atleast 6 years. Four of those years in a S2000, two in a corvette. Anyways, I just wish I had the same ability on the bike. It seems like as soon as the bike slips I crash before I even have a chance to realize I over stepped the boundary of the front or rear wheel. This happened to me earlier in the season during a low side. I was off the bike and sliding before I even realized I lost the front wheel. So the question is, how can we train and get used to grip and slip angles on a bike like the guy in the video above without spending thousands in repair costs or mangling ourselfs up. I've only done 6-7 track days on a bike and I'm probably well above the "skill" level of what you would expect from a 6-7 track day rider but I want to be as good on a bike as I am the car. I fear it's going to be a long road of wrecking and risking getting hurt if I want to learn to ride at that limit. Some people are ok with mid-pack (track day) advanced but I prefer to keep learning and getting faster. Here recently I've debated why I didn't build a spec Miata and stick with what I'm good at but frankly I got bored with winning and needed a new challenge. Going any further in racing cars takes deep pockets and unfrortantly I'm not a trust fund baby and moving to bikes is a lot cheaper believe it or not. Yes I understand "slip" isn't the fast way around the track but being able to recover from slip is the goal. I'd like to wreck less and be able to save myself from a wreck.
"Yes I understand "slip" isn't the fast way around the track...." Casey Stoner may disagree with this statement....
I myself would love to invest in some schooling. On a dirt track and on a road course to learn more skills. I'd also like to have a mini that I can take dirt tracking/Supermoto-ing. When I was on a dirtbike I became much more comfortable with the bike moving around and this helped on track too.
Dirt is the key... I started out on dirt close to 30 years ago so when my Panigale slides around it just feels natural. I too would love to get more dirt training but it all comes down to time and $ for me... not enough of either! It all comes down to seat time and riding in your limits. If your riding out of control then the only progression from there is sliding on your arse.
$/time is my reason also Dirt riding is very cheap though. It's the schooling that can get expensive.
Get out on the dirt as stated. The margin of error no the dirt is much larger. You can slide a dirt bike with the bars at full lock, bobble the throttle and likely recover. Since the grip levels are lower on dirt, the speeds are lower and forces needed to break traction are less. Dirt bikes are way cheaper to fix then street bikes Take extra levers when going out to slide around. Back on the asphalt, things change a bit. Speeds are higher. Grip is higher. Margin for error is smaller. In addition, you can get a dirt bike, go find some area by yourself and screw around. At a trackday, you're expected to be on the right line and predictable. There is enough to worry about, other then TRYING to slide the bike and learn. When racing a car. You have more ability to make changes in steering, throttle input and have the stability of four wheels and a frame around you if you mess up. On a bike, everything matters and the relationship between everything matters. Grip - Can change by tire compound, track surface, weather etc. Body position will affect the bike much more. Forces hold you up while leaned over mid corner. You're hanging of the inside to leverage your weight and reduce lean angle. When you lose traction, you lose some of those forces as you exceed grip and the tire breaks loose. When nearing the edge of traction, if you don't have all those fancy electronics, you need to adjust. Stand the bike up maybe. Shift your weight to the outside peg to counteract the forces and regain some traction (If you broke the rear loose into a slide and then regained all traction - High Side). Throttle control is very important. The bad thing is the bars that hold the throttle can move independent of a rider unlike when you're seated in a car. Thats part of the reason saving a big near high side bobble is hard. You're getting tossed around like a toy, manipulating throttle is the last of your thoughts. Back to the car. You're tearing around a long corner, like the carousel at Road America. The car is solid and tracking. You add a bit of throttle. You notice a very slight "lightness" in the feed back of the steering wheel. The wheel wants to turn in more and easier, the car may be starting to push wide, ever so slightly. That "dancing on the edge of traction" you described. The same happens on a bike. This is why you're always told to stay loose and light on the controls. When the front end starts to slide, you will get the same sensation in the bars. As long as you approach that edge of traction slowly. If you blow right past that level of traction, you get no notice and you're wondering why you're decelerating on your face. The same for the rear. When going to the throttle to accelerate. Load the shock or transition from braking or maintenance throttle. Feel the weight transfer to the rear. As you roll on and load the drive train, you'll feel the rear end dig in and settle into the spring load. You continue to add throttle slowly and smoothly until the rear starts to feel light or you hear the engine RPM's start to rise slowly or just change a few hundred RPM's. At that point. You maintain your throttle input and stop adding throttle. You can wait to regain traction or maybe shift some weight to the outside peg. In the car, you don't spin the rear tires immediately. You feel them start to drift as well. You also hear it easier in a car when the tires and near the edge. On a bike, I notice the engine RPM changes sound. I've never heard the rear tire make noise. Unless I was on my face next to it crashing All these subtle things happen in the fraction of a second in a crash where you just blow past the limit. When you approach it slowly, you pickup on these little things. The difference between us and the GP guys is time it takes them to cause a slide, notice what happened, react and move on. Well that and their awesome electronics package. At the top levels, the rider moves not only side to side in turns, but forward and back throughout the race as the fuel burns off, the tires wear and the balance of the bike changes in an effort to maximize grip and traction. They have that level of connection with the bike. Get started with something like The Mystery School, Texas Tornado Boot Camp, American Supercamp or something similar. Learn in the right environment with good instruction. Then come back to the asphalt and work to make your gains and increase your pace, slow and steady.
Josh, go do the Colin Edwards Bootcamp school...some other coaches have done it and loved it. All dirt. Notice how everytime we see MOTOGP riders NOT on the track, they are riding dirtbikes...
They say racing a car is 90% car 10% driver. Ive heard racing a bike is the opposite 90% driver 10% car. I think what they say about seat time is true lol I just looked at Colin Edwards boot camp where else can you ride a dirt bike and shoot a barrett.
Flat track something if you can find it where you are. If you're up north, get an ice bike and ride it. If you are south, you can try a lower cost motard/kart track like a Herrincompound.com type trackday for smaller trainer bikes on a paved road course. Up north we have Shawano/US Air. Edwards school is big bucks, big fun, and its probably worth it if you can pull it off. But 2-3 days isn't enough to build experience and develop your habits. I think you need time and repetition. MotoX/trails are good too, but have techniques and challenges that are somewhat counter to what road riders have. Also injuries are different, because while you might not have a lot of traction, for sure you will stop a lot faster when you do fall, so there a lot of energy that gets absorbed quickly as opposed to sliding down the track. It's tougher to start riding dirt if you are already an old fast guy from other disciplines, you're going to want to go fast right from the get-go, and that's going to hurt. If you are still bendy, go for it.
Agreed, the limited time I was on dirt I can say that I wanted to use the front brake more and lean into the corner (roadrace style) which didn't work out so well..haha.. I quickly realized my mistake and began riding the bike as it should be ridden; what I learned from dirt is how to be OK with the bike being loose going into and out of corners. On the track today if I get squirrelly (SP) I am mostly okay with it and feel in control of it. Now that I have a slipper clutch, corner entries are much nicer
Does Herrin have a Dirt Track? I thought it was all paved.... To answer your question none that I am aware of unless you have some friends with Horse Tracks.... I would love to build a flat tracker but I think the closest place for it is in Montgomery...
Honestly, riding dirt bikes in any dirt environment is fun & helpful. I have raced hare scrambles for 30+ years and my track days started just 2 years ago. Sliding the tires was actually expected & is part of the fun! Around Atlanta you have an excellent dirt venue .... Highland Park. It has all types of off road riding areas available (trails, MX, etc, etc)..
Herrin is Sumo. That's an option but it's 2+ hrs away. I was thinking some dirt tracks, trails, motoX parks that are open for public use. Highland Park the only local place?
Please take note of the second paragraph in regards to practicing this at a "track day." I totally agree that you should try it on dirt first as I come from a motocross background and the skills I learned there have saved me a few times on the asphalt! I also agree that things happen way faster at speed and that's why you should practice this in a more controlled setting, not a track day. Now a tip on getting to that point, ride on tires that are almost used up and feel what it's like to loose traction because the tire is going away rather than trying to slide a nice fresh one, It will be more predictable. Once you do acquire the "feel" then you can work on doing it with good tires incrementally.
The problem with used up tires are..... They are used up. A used up tire has less rubber which is less carcass. This makes it hard for the tire to hold heat. There is no mass of rubber on the cords to maintain heat or provide traction. Though you're right that the tire will slide easier, it won't come back as easy and it may not be as predictable or consistent in it's behavior. It may also have different grip levels, left to right as the tire wears unevenly. Using your logic, I would rather go with a newer tire of a different compound to get closer to the traction limit. But again, the wrong tire for the conditions is a recipe for pain. Apples, oranges, bananas. How ever you want to look at it. Everyone has to find what works for them. Just remember, every time you crash at a trackday, trying new things, the rest of your group pays the price with lost track time. Set yourself up for success and let the skills / learning come in stages.
Yes, you will not be popular with your fellow riders if your 'training session' causes them to all have to sit out for you while they clean up your mistakes...