Kath....pretty good memory, as it was this past May when (as an STT member, NOT as a Reduc Director) I left in the rain to watch a MotoGp race. No offence, but watching a MotoGp race in the comfort of my warm, dry house is now a tad more enjoyable than standing around in the wet and cold watching a dozen die hard track day junkies ride around Pocono's East Course (again!) as my own brand new machine, shod with brand new slicks, sits in a trailer. But, hey....you go to your Church, Ill go to mine. And about the new 1098..... I certainly understand enjoying that which you already have, as I rode each of my last 2 bikes for almost 9 years and expect that my new one may be my last. But I've always known that technology rarely moves backwards, and that each new generation of machine (whether a Honda or Ducati) is an improvement over it's predecessor, and that my aging machines (in spite of the amount of money I threw at them) were not quite as good as those that replaced them. Ducati's ability to not only produce a machine that produces 60 more horsepower than the original 916, and reduce it's weight by over 50lbs, but to do so while keeping the price exactly the same 13 years later, is a remarkable accomplishment ; a fact that's even obvious to a 4 cylinder pagan who rode a Ducati long before you, and didn't "miss anything" at all, but just felt that they weren't my cup of tea, until perhaps now. But maybe you're right and I am indeed missing something..... it might be just another overpriced, underpowered, heavy, and unreliable peice of shit from the country that builds Fiats.... :roll:
" it might be just another overpriced, underpowered, heavy, and unreliable peice of shit from the country that builds Fiats.... " I didn't know Honda was Italian :lol: Mike
I'm gonna save my final judgement till I see the 1098 in person, for the 999 style grew on me as well. At first glance, I do find a few design faults: - Tailsection/Mufflers: Sorry, dut Ducatis used to have some of the sexiest tails of any bike out there. This one looks like an afterthought. What's with those big, giant R-1 want-a-bee cans sticking out in different directions? Even the plastic around it looks liek a hack job. Maybe this is just a prototype, who knows. - Body Work: I just don't get it. They tried to mimic the GP bike headlight treatment, but it came out looking more like the Triumph 675. Rest of the body work just doens't have a unique Italian look any more. Sad. And why the Yama/Honda?Kawi 1098 graphics? - Overall Specs: Dead on! More power, Much less weight, this they got right. - Single Side Swing arm: This I like. One of the sexiest parts of the old 916 style was the gorgeous swingarm. I thight they got rid of them because of the weight, so I'm surprised they're able to design one that's easy on the scale. Considering that most of this bike is more funciton than art, I'm guessing the rear will work as good as it looks. Just my 2 cents, but lets see what it looks like in person.
Rich....I'm not sure, but Suzuki's explanation of the new GSXR1000 getting 2 hideous mufflers as opposed to last years single hideous muffler had to do with European noise and emission requirements, so perhaps the same requirements neccessitated the same on the 1098. Not a big deal, as exhaust cans are the first modifications most consumers replace.....on all brands. I agree that single sided swingarms are beautiful, but both Honda and Ducati canned them for being too heavy and not quite as strong. Perhaps die casting allowed Ducati to circumvent both problems, as they certainly seemed to prioritize saving weight. And why the over all look of the machine isn't being as well received as I would have expected (too me, it does indee resember the look of the MotoGp bike, which is stunning) is a mystery almost as interesting as Kath's admonishment of anything I say about Ducatis, positive or negative; I don't get it. It seems that "different" appeals to some just because it's different......the 999, like the Hyabusa and my generation GSXR was certainly different, and in spite of the fact that each machine was technologically better than their predicessors, all three were ugly; you compared the 1098's looks to a 675......not bad company, as it too is as stunning machine.
Hello Bob, New Ducatis rarely are recieved well, especialy by Ducati riders. They didn't like the twins in '71. They loathed my '77 ss when I bought it, but now go on about how they loved it from the start. They in turn disliked the Pantah, F1, 851,916 and 999.when they came out, always prefering the previous model. The 916 is a prime example. people go on endlessly about how they fell in love with it as soon as they saw it. The reality was, I had to listen to endless musings about how they loved the timeless style of the 851/888 and how the 916 was too modern. As I've said previously. Motorcycle riders are extremely conservitive. They want new and exciting, as long as it changes very little :roll:
Mike....I'll have to take your word about how new Ducati's have been initially received, but I don't personally remember anyone making any negative comments about the styling of either the 888 or 916/998 series, both of which reestablished a marque that had all but dissappeared to everyone but a very small group of Ducati devotees. The 999's styling, however, (in spite of the rest of the machine being acknowledged as a giant technological step forward) was different, receiving negatve comments from the vast majority of riders of all makes, including Ducati owners themselves. I'm surprised that styling of the new machine seems to have brought up some controversy, as I not only think it looks much better than the 999, but I think it's looks bring back the clean, simple, and and more elegant lines that made the 916/998 so stunning. BB
So get on the enlightened path and BUY one already!!!! :twisted: :wink: :lol: besides, I only give you sh*t regarding your opinions on Ducatis because you have so much to say without having really ridden one lately!!! ...unless you're hiding something from us...:wink: Kath
Hello Kath, If he buys one, what would we do for fun? This way we get to benefit from insight based on conjecture I personally will be keeping my 999s. I'm still learning how to ride it and tune it and I feel there is a lot left in the bike and rider combination. If I was buying now, I'd get the 1098, however because of the technological advances. I've always liked the 999 styleing but from the begining I felt many would not, because it was so different. If you look at something like the GSXR series, the 2007 is radically different than the 1985, if you look at the whole series in sequence, you can see the connection from year to year. Smart marketing on Suzuki's part.
Again Kath....you are correct; I have not ridden a Ducati "lately. Most of those I rode were owned my ex-housemate (Lewie") who still owns several and has owned several more during the almost 30 years we've been friends. Those I've ridden included his 1972 750 Sport, his 1978 900 Desmo SS, his 1990 851, and a later model air cooled 750 or 900SS (I don't remember).... all of which I put several hundred miles on except the latter, which I referred to as Italy's answer to "planned parenthood", as my 160 gram bicycle seat is even kinder to my genitalia. The closest thing to a modern Ducati I ever rode was Dimitri's 888 SP3 (or 5....I don't remember) in 1993 or 1994. Since then, the only twins I rode were an RC51, a TL1000, and an SV650, but like theDucati's.....they confirmed that twins are just not my cup of tea, regardless of their country of origin. The SV....due to it's size and less intimidating amount of engine braking, was the most fun to ride, but the lack of power made it a bit boring. So we're stimulated differently (I guess that explains Pete :lol: :lol: :lol: ), but different than you....I've never really cared what was written on the side of a fuel tank, but have definite opinions about what I like that tank to feed. "Brand Loyalty" bores me.....it's what you have in common with Harley Davidson and BMW owners, a very open minded bunch for sure <g>. BB
Bob, The jump from fours to twins takes more than test rides. It can easily take a year or more to make a complete adjustment. Which is most likely more adjusting than you care to do at this point. I'm sure the reverse is also true. I'v owned a bunch of four cylinders in the past but none since 1991, so jumping on your GSXR for a few laps , for example, most likely would not prove anything to me. The biggest difference is corner entrys. If you match the revs on downshifts (which you don't) and don't make too many downshifts too quick, a twin is actually smoother on deceleration. If you just bang the gears down, a twin will jump around more and not want to turn in. But hey, if fours are what do it for you, great. There are also variations on brand loyalty. It does not require us to be blind just because we prefer a certain brand. There are also those with no brand loyalty that may as well be blind. Though they think they see everything, they see none of it clearly. Not aimed at you, just an observation.
Mike writes: Good point, Mike...but we'd have an entire winter to plot and scheme!! :twisted: :lol: Bobby...there's no denying that I am attached to the brand...but I saw and fell in love with my first Ducati as a college kid back in the 80's before I even knew what one was and where it came from. It was looks first, riding impression second, and everything else is actually kind of a distant third (well, the racing pedigree is kind of nice). In fact, I could really live without 90% of the "Ducatisti" demographic, and if anything I revel more in the idea of Ducati as an underdog committed to a higher standard than the air of exclusivity with which it's been branded by the industry, the media, and perhaps some (but not all, to be sure) of ducati's own corporate top guns. Bobby wrote: Hmm...well since your attachment to a brand goes no further than what spec sheet gives you the biggest rise, I wouldn't expect you to know that feeling. All I can say is that the Ducati label on the side of the fuel tank does no more than name that something mechanically unique and visceral that is working between you and the pavement, whereas in comparison the Japanese 4s have struck me as soullessly interchangeable. If you really did take the writing off all tanks in a Pepsi Challenge style contest...for me the Ducati package is the one I would still ride away with. I say that after having ridden a couple of different current GSXR 1000s, Honda 929, a Honda VTR 1000, an Aprilia Caponord (Mille engine) and a couple others. And btw, if you don't care what's on the side of the fuel tank...you certainly care what's written on everything else on your bike...Brembo calipers and m/c's, Discacatti brakes, Ohlins (or is it Penske?), Technomagnesio, Sato (?) rearsets...I may be slightly off on some of the brands, but they're all in the 99th percentile as far as trick, brand-conscious aftermarket goes. If you didn't care so much, why not leave the poor Suzuki alone and ride it stock...perfectly good Ducati beater in OEM trim, no? Anyway, what I'm getting at is you have your way of personalizing, I have mine...but we're not as different as you think. For you it's starting with a technically superior platform on paper and building it into an ubermachine using proven performance brand names before it turns one wheel on the track. For me it's starting with a technically, viscerally, and mechanically more gratifying platform and after beginning to appreciate its innate qualities, building on it (with some of those same proven brand names as you) to enhance the total package bit by bit. For me in the end, the reward is a riding experience like I had a few weekends ago at summit point where the 999 just sang (I still haven't come down from how perfectly balanced the bike felt, a true feeling of sympatico), not who's looking at it when stopped at a traffic light. And besides...if I really cared about the label on the tank for what you seem to insinuate as poseur value...then I certainly wouldn't have trucked it in a rusted out 2-tone '88 Chevy Beauville for all those years! :wink: :lol: Kath p.s. one final note...Mike, on the bit about downshifts in your last post...it's time to get thee to a slipper clutch...what fun!!
Kath, I've been matching revs on downshifts for so long that I'd forget I had the slipper clutch for the first five or ten years. But hey, a couple of years ago I finally got over reaching for the kickstarter when I got on a bike :lol: Seriously, I always looked at a slipper clutch as something to smooth over our mistakes rather than the primary way of accommodating the RPM change.
Actually, Mike, what you described in your first sentence is kind of the reality...I really enjoy getting a perfectly rev-matched downshift and do it all the time...it's part of that gratification factor of having a twin, and was one of the first things I really enjoyed learning to do. To that end, the slipper is a unnecessary on the street (in fact, if I never did trackdays, I wouldn't get one). On the track, don't think of the slipper clutch as a get out of jail free card. one should still match revs on downshifts, in fact, most of the time the slipper doesn't come into play at all. However, in improving corner entry speed in a certain kind of turn, like the tight turns off high speed sections of Summit's Turn 1 and Turn 5, the slipper does a nice job of integrating with the revs you're already matching. In those turns in particular, if I've been brave enough to let go of the binders when I really want to turn in, I find that the revs haven't dropped quite as quickly as the brakes can get me to my turn-in entry speed plus the revs I want to carry through the corner for a good drive out. We might be talking 1000 rpm higher (? I go by sound really) than I would normally be comfortable revving on the downshift since experience tells me that the bike isn't going fast enough to keep the rear wheel from breaking traction violently and upsetting the bike. The slipper clutch will allow you to match those higher revs and at the most, the back wheel might wag its tail a bit...normally the revs are just absorbed by the slipper and the bike behaves itself, the most important thing being that the chassis of the bike isn't getting upset as you turn in. Again, the slipper is not a panacea...depending on how the plate stack is built you can still hop the back if you're really hamhanded with a downshift (though I don't feel the need to experiment in that direction). And I don't rely on the slipper to go into a turn in a lower gear when I should be experimenting with a higher one first. But in a tight turn situation or a mixed pavement situation like Summit T1, where I tend to stay neutral throttle for a bit and wait to roll hard on the gas until after the concrete transition, the slipper allows one to set up nicely for all of that. Another place the slipper comes in handy is the on the Pocono F-USA course's turn going onto the back straight. An oddball turn that I like to enter faster because I don't want to get on the gas too hard while pointed at the wall. With the slipper, I can shorten the braking time and enter the turn at slightly higher revs which carry me through the neutral throttle zone with a better drive rpm when I'm ready to roll on. I guess I'm trying to sell it because I think you in particular would enjoy it, Mike. You definitely aren't going to change the way you downshift...you might even forget that you have a slipper most of the time...but when you get into that first situation where you either find yourself holding the brakes just a bit longer to get that last downshift in, or settling for a corner speed with revs that don't give you the best drive out, you'll see where it can come in handy. The slipper is one aid to a world full of setup compromises on the track...wait to shift to the lower gear and you've compromised your entry speed, pick a higher gear in a short turn and the revs are slightly too low for the exit; the slipper bridges that gap. Well, here's hoping a younger dog can teach an older dog a new trick...think about it! Kath
Someone posted this pic on another board. Very nice. Also, +1 to the slipper clutch. Kath pretty much nailed my feelings on it.
Me too....if that's just "middle of the road", the 999's still home in the garage. unable to make it to the driveway.
I have to agree there...and now Bobby's suggestion to me last fall to paint my extra fairings in the tricolor scheme is taking on a whole new appeal...I think I like this color split better than the commemorative one on the GP bike. Breaking up the fairing with the three (well sort of 4 on the 1098) color blocks is quite handsome...I'll give Bobby credit where credit is due... kath
If it looks as good in person as it does in that pic.. Pure appeal right there. :shock: I've also been looking into a color scheme for the K5's race plastics and this has given me a pretty good idea for a direction. Not tri-color but definitely something similar in blue and white.
I prefer the solid red S myself. I always thought the Tricolores (F1, 851 and now 1098) belonged on display in a pizza shop, right in front of the red velvet and goldleaf wall with the pictures of Frank Sinatra and Mt Vesuvius. I thought the 2001 996s which had several green stripes on the seat and front fairing looked great however.