I posted this on RC51.org and figured I'd post it on both STT and NESBA boards for consideration and response. I did trackdays at Barber with both of these organizations, riding in the Novice class with STT and in the Beginner class with NESBA. I figured that not EVERYBODY on this forum had done a track day and might need some information to help them make an informed decision on which organization to go with. STT. PROS 1) ALL novice group riders are REQUIRED to attend classroom instruction before the first 3-4 sessions. This allows you to get feedback on your riding, to meet your instructors and know who they are so that even when you're not on the track you know who you can go to for information and advice. This also allows all novice group riders to be on the same page as far as rules go. It also allows all riders in the group to get to know each other. 2) All instructors wear numbered shirts so it's easier to tell which instructor was working with you during the session so you can ask for pointers and advice. 3) The tire and accessory vendors are excellent and there's always someone there to help you with whatever purchase you want to make. CONS 1) After only one track day, anyone who has ridden as a novice can move up to intermediate, regardless of whether they are ready or not. 2) Sometimes the classroom sessions on top of track sessions make the morning into a time of wide open activity, where you run to the classroom, run to your bike, race down to pit lane, ride your laps, park your bike, run back to classroom. 3) No evaluation program. If you pay for a trackday and discover in the first session it's just not your thing, you can go home but your money is gone. 4) No waiting list. If an event is sold out, there is no list that you can be placed on should a slot become available. I've also seen trackdays purchased and then resold at a higher price than was paid for them. 5) LDH is a control rider (just kidding Mike) NESBA PROS 1) Waiting list. If you want to get a track day for an event that is sold out there is a waiting list. As riders cancel the people on the list get called with the option of buying the trackday. They also discourage resale of track days and try to prohibit scalping of them. 2) First session is used for learning the track and the lines and After that there are no drills or lessons, and only limited follow the leader time. If you don't want to spend any riding time doing group single gear drills or learning to break/shift, then NESBA is for you. 3) Intro rides. During the first two sessions of the day, anyone who has pre registered can do what is called an Intro Ride at no cost. No bike prep necessary but you must pass tech inspection. Intro riders ride as a supervised group and after the sessions are over, anyone who wishes to ride the rest of the day must pay for a track day and meet all tech requirements. 4) Riders must be graduated into the next group. You can't just jump to intermediate after doing one beginner day. You have to let the control riders know you want to move up a class and they have to follow you and observe if you are ready to jump. If they approve you move up. 5) Crash and mechanical breakdown insurance. If you crash or break down early in the day (before lunch) then you qualify for a 50% event credit on the day. CONS 1) Very little classroom training. In fact even though there were 40+ riders in the beginner group, only about 4 of us bothered to show up for beginner orientation. 2) Control riders don't wear numbered jerseys so unless they find you it's very difficult to know who was tutoring you in the previous session. 3) Control riders wait on side of pit lane as riders exit the track and you are expected to pull over and ask if anyone saw you riding and can give you some pointers. I didn't like this because A)I couldn't tell who had been helping be and B) I almost got sideswiped by a rider who didn't look before he pulled back onto pit lane after talking to the control riders. 4) Trackside service wasn't stellar. The vendor seemed way more interested in getting out for the afternoon sessions than waiting on customers. Both of my experiences with these organizations was at Barber so your results at individual venues may vary. Both are very good, professional organizations and overall have good programs. I'm addressing them as someone who is new. I feel that this is where the organizations varied the most, in the treatment of new riders. If you are a first time track guy I have to say I recommend STT because the classroom training before the sessions is invaluable. After your first day or two NESBA might be more your cup of tea because the beginner group spends more time riding and less time training (although training is still very important and is available on a one on one basis) and there are still faster riders in the beginner group since they have to be graduated to intermediate. My view from both sides of the fence.
Pretty much right on assessment for both groups Soundman. I agree with the pro's and con's accept for the beginner group and trackside service. Might be different out there, but at the tracks I have ridden with NESBA (Illinois), they make sure the beginners are in the classroom before the first time out by head count. Service has always been good hear. But like anything else, this is going to be open to various opinions, styles, likes and dislikes. Otherwise, good information.
Is that the case with all STT levels and at all STT regions? It would seem odd that people aren't checked-out by a Control Rider prior to being bumped to another level. What is the process at STT?
We are always evaluating riders to be sure that they are riding in the proper group, & moving people around as much as it is practical & possible. Unfortunately, the registration process permits people to register for whatever group they want to some extent. When an event is close to selling out, some people will sign up for any group they can get in, leaving us to sort it all out as the day progresses. It may seem less than ideal, but we do the best we can to make it possible for everyone to have a fun & safe event each & every time.
I think part of the problem is the training sessions in the Novice group. I think it's good the first time at a new track, but after that, I want to just go ride. There needs to be a choice to OPT-OUT of the training sessions...especially once you've sat through it 1 time at that specific track. I like the novice group because I don't want anyone passing me in the corners, but I'll most likely start riding Intermediate to skip the training sessions. For me, It's much better to go ride, then rest for 40 minutes before heading back out.
As I read this now, we must not forget one thing... track safety is the key element here. Understanding the registration process like DJ said, should lend itself to others being more attentive to who is on the track like. I do not mean the control riders either - I mean the riders themselves. The control riders have a hard enough time to govern the actions of those they are watching or those who request to be watched. It's the other half of us on the track that we as riders need to be concerned with. If you are fresh to intermediate with only a single day session in novice - one of two things are going to happen. You are either one of those individuals that have taken the sport by the horns and have adapted very well, or, might be riding over your head... even if it is just a little bit. The beginners are structured for a reason. The intermediates loosen this structure for certain reasons as does the advanced group. Speed and riding is not the only object here. Some have a problem being passed - try being passed in the Bus Stop at Blackhawk. It's not that someone can not pass you, it's whether someone can pass you safely and whether or not you can be passed safely. What I mean by this is whether or not you hold your line, whether it is through a turn or anywhere else on the track for that matter. Eventually someone is going to catch up or you will catch up them. Approaching riders should and will wait for that time when they know "Here is when I am going to make a safe pass." As you should wait for the safe time to make an appropriate pass I'm babbling and sorry. My point is this... I've been passed nicely and not so nicely in "I" group. I have passed people. I have also had the sound mind to pull into the hot pit lane, let a group of riders go through so I can place myself somewhere else on the track. Everyone wants to move up. Everyone wants to prove to themselves "I can do this." Can you and will you tell yourself "I might be out of my league here" or honestly accept the word of a control rider telling you to reconsider groups. The first half of the beginner day is all about adapting the fundamentals. Do we ever stop doing that regardless of the level we are at? Do we ever stop trying to make ourselves better... brake deeper, turn tighter, smoother throttle, etc... It is there for a reason. Safety #1 - for you and the others. I hope that all made sense.
i don't know how big of an issue it is having riders sign up outside their normal class but, how about a way to identify them? colored t-shirts? it seems to me knowing who is not normally in the class opens the door for more safety. i mean, if john doe from the beginner class signs up for the advanced cuz that's all that's left, assuming he can do that, it would be nice to know that i might scare the bejeezus out of him if i pass in the regularly accepted method for the class. if i could id john doe as a beginner or someone stepping up in class(green shirt?), i'd cut him slack. alternately, what about an advanced rider in intermediate? give them an orange shirt? lets people know the maniac out there is actually capable of being maniacal? just a thought. yeah? nay? i've got aalllll the answers, as you may well know. :lol:
In reality, here's how it works. Riders sign up too late and therefore choose to enter a group other than the one they normally ride in, because their usual group is full. Those who have already ridden with us almost NEVER sign up for a higher group than they feel comfortable with just to get through the door. Nope, those guys know better than to jump into the piranna tank! The problem comes from faster riders who sign up late, and opt to ride with a slower group instead of staying home. Well, STT can't really prevent this, but all riders ARE required to follow the rules of engagement for the group they are in that day, as spelled out in the rider's meeting. Every group has coaches. The coaches are watching the behavior of the riders on-track. If a faster rider signs up for a slower group and thinks he or she will just ride as they would in their usual faster group, (thus scaring the hell out of and putting at risk everyone else in the group) then they have another think coming. Riders who ignore the rules laid out for the group they sign up for will be warned. If they continue to ride outside the rules of the group they signed up for, they will be ejected. Those are Monte's rules. They have been enforced before, and will be enforced again.
that's cool. in that case, do you think a t-shirt identifying them would be of any benefit to the other in-class riders? as a rider normally associated with a more advanced class, it's possible they could be viewed as a learning tool...except for the registering in time thing. :lol: equally, the coaches would have the benefit of easily keeping tabs on this rider. it might even spawn that rider's best behavior. just throwin' it out there.
:shock: I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but... You should watch some of the threads on Cycleforums. :wink:
I'll be honest, at the risk of not towing the corporate line. :shock: Some folks come right off the street knowing more than Rossi or Hayden. Why would such magnificent talents want to waste time in a class called Novice, or even one called Intermediate? I mean, once you've run from the cops and got away, done a stand-up wheelie down the white line between cars on the freeway, and stoppied while sitting on the tank, what could a group of past and present champion roadracers and multi year coaches who host slumber parties on the lap record teach you about riding a motorcycle? I've shoved certain I students into intermediate kicking and screaming. Once they got there, they discovered to their suprise that fully 50% of the I group could really benefit from some time in the N group. What is comes down to is that riders are either driven by a balanced combination of thirst for knowledge and healthy fear, or by raw ego. The egotists tend to sort themselves out in true Darwinian fashion. Ironically though, they usually turn out to be the same group that does most of the complaining. Oh, the stories I could tell.... And no Fred, the t-shirt thing wouldn't work. How do you get a guy who's signed up in the wrong group to cop to it and then wear a shirt? It would just be one more bloody thing to enforce. And if someone is looking for a mentor to help them get faster, well that's why STT has such a fine coaching staff.
My first track day with STT was Barber in March of 06. Being the first track day at Barber it sold out quickly and as a result there were LOTS of guys in the Novice group who should have been in one of the higher groups but weren't because they were sold out. As a result there were LOTS of warnings about bad passes and overly aggressive riding. Those warning were hardly ever heard by those who needed them though because those riders who were committing the infractions were never at the classroom sessions. It was only a few riders but the fact that they were never in the classroom was annoying because if they were gonna ride in the novice they were supposed to be at the classroom sessions with the rest of us. One possible solution to this problem would be tape stripes. Before the track day the lead instructor decides what color tape will be used for that day. Every instructor is given a roll of said color tape. At the end of each classroom session each instructor gives each of his students a strip of tape to apply to the back of their helmet. If you're lined up for the third session and only have two strips of tape, you sit out that session. That would ensure that everyone on the track has attended the previous classroom session and make it easier for the control riders to observe and enforce.
I'd also add that most all of the coaches interact with each other throughout the day. A large part of that interaction revolves around the riders they have been observing. We might be thinking a certain rider we have observed needs to be moved either up or down to another group, or may need some one on one time to help get them to that next level. This is most obvious in the Novice group. As coaches, we are constantly evaluating those in our group, and using the collective experience of our peer coaches to make changes in group assignments. The first consideration in a change is for the safety of that rider, and then for the learning of the rider. Many times, we have reconfigured Novice throughout the day, adding groups and even one on one instruction to help STT members get the most from their track experience. Be assured, coaches are watching and evaluating you all day long, no matter what group you're in.
okay. i had imagined matching stickers and shirts(paid for by the rider as penalty for late registration) and checked at grid-out and...<sigh> guess i wasn't thinkin'.
I would like to add that I have spent many a session up in a tower with a stopwatch, out on a bike watching for riders, on the radio with cornerworkers asking about specific riders, and / or walking the pits questioning those that I trust about riders in each session. It is not foolproof, and no system is, but I have pulled/pushed riders into different groups many a time and helped them have more fun as well as raised the safety standard. Yes, it would be nice if STT would implement the system that I have advised, but they continue to argue that this is a free country, costs are already high, and this is indeed a dangerous sport not a picnic. But really, don't you all think that helicopter surveillance, motogp style instant telemetry, and boozed up ex-nam snipers with pay-per-kill contracts would improve safety for everyone. Well, OK, the snipers does seem a bit too much; maybe we could just have a control tower with onboard cameras for each rider being monitored - a too close pass or obvious speed disparity results in a "minor" electric shock to the nether region . . . Did you find what you were shopping for today? Thanks for shopping @#$-%@#! Brett Blacketer
Don't stop thinking! A thinking man has to come up with many unworkable ideas before he has that one magnificent brainstorm! :idea:
What if we just rig each coach bike with a nose-mounted Tek 9 loaded with rubber bullets? There's been more than one time that I've been chasing an offender through traffic, and have wished I could just strafe him and be done with it.... :twisted:
I've sat through countless classroom sessions, & I stiil hear things that I'm not always applying on the track. Frequently I'm the one saying those things too. :wink: The classroom material isn't really track specific either. FWIW, some of the best riders that we have we've had to shame out of the Novice group after a dozen events or more.
All Novice riders are supposed to attend all of the classroom sessions, or they don't ride. All Novice Instructors should be attending all of the classroom sessions too, to be sure that all of the riders in their groups are there, so the Lead Instructor doesn't have to figure it all out.