Suspension setup ?

My advise would be if it is not broke, don't fix. If you do not have any complaints with your current set up and your initial set up was done properly, you should have no problem with this until you really start pushing yourself and the bike. You will feel your suspension telling you slight things while you are riding. You just need to be able to explain the feeling, where, when and how to your suspension tuner if you want it dialed in beside basic sag set up. Good luck.

 

I disagree. First off, suspension oil breaks down just like engine oil. Leaving well enough alone can be expensive, as I'm finding out. The longer you run, the worse the oil gets. I could actually feel my oil going away this summer, but I didn't get the suspension serviced because I was too broke and too busy riding. I'm paying the price now, because I wore out all my suspension bushings. This means that my simple suspension refresher is now a major rebuild. This is the same thing that would happen if you never changed oil in your car and wore out the bearings.

Other than needing to refresh your suspension once a year or more, there is setup. I could sing Ken from SBK Italia's praises all day long, but haven't I done that a million times already? It's simple. A guy who really knows setup can tune your bike to you like a tailor fits you into a suit. First are the springs. Stock springs DO NOT work right for everyone. You need a set custom selected for your weight and level of agression. Next is setting sag by adjusting preload. If the spring rates are off, this part of the job will show it, and the results will suffer.

Finally there is dampening. We all know about revalve kits, ect. But even if your valving is stock, it still needs to be set the best it can be. Balance is key. If the bike isn't doing the same thing front and rear, it will be a bear to ride. Miss the balance and the wheels start to fight each other. Ken's special talent is making any set of components you bring him perform to the best they can offer, even if your stuff is stock.

Now here's how slick a really good tuner can get. Ken does different setups, depending on the rider's ability and style. If a beginner tried to ride my bike the way Ken sets it up, he'd probably be on his head within 3 or 4 laps. I've been doing this for a long time, so Ken sets my bike up on the razor's edge, and counts on my experience to keep me a step ahead of the bike. He'll set up less experienced riders with something a little bit calmer and more forgiving.

Think of it like this. You decide to learn how to dance, and sign up for dance lessions. Your shoes don't fit right, but you've been told that you don't need good shoes until you really know what you're doing. So you keep falling down, and no matter how hard you try, you never dance as well as you feel you could or should. And dammit! The harder you try, the harder you throw yourself to the floor! Finally you get shoes that fit. Suddenly you dance tons better, and it doesn't even seem like you're trying!

Properly sprung and perfectly tuned suspension works just like that. After tires, it's the #1 best place to invest in your bike.

 

K3 I agree with your explanation. I only based my general response on the claim that he has done a total of six track days, is continuing to work his way up and nothing has changed in his or the bikes geometry. Thanks for expanding!

 

Hey, K3 I'm sure it's hard to explain without actually showing me, but can you give a couple of examples of different setups for different styles. I've actually been starting to study suspension a little bit because I feel it could help later. I learned that softening you're compression can help a little in the wet (Can make you run wider though.)and sometimes increasing a little rebound is also good on a really bumpy track because if forces the tires down to the track in the bumps. I also learned that raising the rear can help make in for a quicker turn in, but if you go to high you lose stability. I was just wondering if you had some examples of style and suspension setup. You know how they tie together. I'm sure it's kind of a hard question.......but hey I'm sure you know I already know I like to ask a ton of questions. Thanks again.

 

I think you may have the rebound thing backwards Rabbit. More rebound damping will lead to chatter over bumps and is actually mistaken for too much compression damping by most riders.

 

:shock: :shock: :shock: Dude I could have killed my bike!!! I'm at least trying to figure it out. Serious question though. So what doe's the rebound dampening do?? I thought it forced the tire to the ground quicker. I'm still in the learning phase...sorry. I really want to understand the in's and outs of suspension though. I think it could really, really help me. I know Rob told me a book to get, but I forgot the name of it. Hey, thanks again though.

 

I have a funny think I'm going to be on this thread for a while picking ears. I hope it turns into one of those threads. This could be a good one for discussion. :wink:

 

Hello Rabbit,



Rebound damping slows the return of the suspension from a compressed state. Too little rebound damping allows the bike to wallow, dive and squat excessively. An example of too little would be instability when releaseing the brakes in a corner entry. Too much does not allow the suspension to re-extend in time to absorb the next bump, a condition known as "packing down." This intern makes it feel as if there is too much compression damping, when often the opposite is true.



Two things if you are learning about suspension. First; it is often counter intuitive, especially to those new at it but sometimes still to those with years of experience. Second; Your suspension has damping. (we hope)

"Dampening" was when us old folks sprinkled water on our clothes when we ironed them.

 

Doooh! Did it again! The day I get that right, a meteorite will land on my head and kill me.

 

Yeah, well in truth we're both right. You're right that if his bike was competently set up the first time, it doesn't need to be set up again unless he upgrades components, changes tire brands, repairs the suspension after a crash, or whatever might have disturbed the setup in the first place.

I'm right in that he needs to have the forks and shock serviced with fresh fluids, at which point everything will have been apart and the setup will need to be done over again.

I'll state this as an absolute fact. Anyone who's serious about this sport needs to form a working relationship with a really competent suspension tuner. The one you choose should be the one who shows up to most of your events. This relationship needs to be more than a one-night stand, because your suspension needs periodic service, must be inspected after a crash, and of course always craves upgrading! Yes, you'll have to pay the guy. But what you get in return is a bike that performs properly and won't unexpectedly try to kill you for no obvious reason. After years of doing it the other way, I've finally come to realize that a susension guy is worth what he charges you.

 

Hey, thanks for the info Desmos. The way you described it I could actually envision the bike doing what you were saying and relating to it. I've only been doing the track for a year, but I've always been a technical nut. I guess everyone learns different. I feel if I have a better understanding of what everythings doing I will have more confidence in doing what I need to do. I figured it might also help me trouble shoot some things if I know which direction to go. Also it might not be bad to "Dampen" my bike with holy water or something.......It wouldn't hurt :lol: :lol: Thanks for the correction on the spelling as well. My grammar is usually there, but not always. Take care.

 

Oh and I never understood trail braking until I read about it in the big debate over it a few weeks ago......I just learn different I guess. I've been running mid-pack in intermediate and I've never even trailbraked yet. I'm sure that will help tremendously. I can't wait to work on it in April.

 

To expand on the idea of who you should have doing your suspension. Right now my forks and shock are being rebuilt by Lithium Motorsports. They are an extremely competent race shop, and I'd recommend them to anyone. Lithium sponsors me, and I crew for their AMA team, so I was lucky enough to swap labor on this deal.

Although they rebuilt it, Lithium won't likely be tuning my suspension. I'll have Ken at Superbike Italia do that. Why? Location, pure and simple. Lithium provides trackside service at the CCS races I used to run, while Ken provides service at the STT trackdays I run now. Both are excellent and 100% reputable, but Ken is where I need him to be most often.

The point is that you need to find a suspension provider who shows up where you need him, and then support that guy with your hard-earned dollars. It's the only way to keep him showing up at the track when and where you need him. In a sense, I almost feel like I'm cheating on Lithium and Superbike Italia, because I use them both, depending on where and when I need their services. Of course, my situation is unique. I'd highly suggest that any serious rider investigate the reputation of the shops he has available to him, then find one shop and stick with them loyally. The relationship that you build with your suspension tuner will greatly enhance your enjoyment and safety at the track, and will also teach you quite a bit about your bike in the process. It's a win-win situation.

 

as a general rule...

compression is comfort,

rebound is control.



- if you feel the bumps sharply in your wrists or arse, you have too much compression. use it to avoid chatter and only as much as is necessary.



- control...phew. i forget what i may have known as a rule of thumb, like above, and it's no wonder we have specialists in the suspension field. it's the 'other' black art of tuning.

 

Hello Fred,



Unless you have waaayyy to much high speed compression damping, what feels harsh in your wrists is excess rebound damping. It is the sudden stop as the fork tries to return that gives the jolt. This is more common over a series of bumps but can be found even over one. Crank up the rebound some day and try it. You'd swear it was compression.

 

Wish I had that little emoticon for eating popcorn right now. This is good stuff. 8) I'll be tuning in. Also the compression rebound makes a little more sense to me now too.

 

My basics for damping are; enough compression to cushion the bumps, enough rebound to maintain stability. I then add or subtract damping as needed to control pitch. More compression on the rear shock for example to control squat, on the front fork to control dive. More rebound to control rise. Incease front rebound to keep the front low, decrease it to increase the "reach" of the fork and mintain tire contact with the road. Same in the back. I sometimes decrease rear rebound to help maintain rear traction under braking.



The fun part is it's all compromises. Which is why large adjustments so often lead to trouble.

 

Cool, I already had my suspension set really close for the track by one of the vendors. (I can't remember who did it.) Now if I want to move a click or two to fine tune it for what I want I can know which direction to go with it. It's nice to know this stuff. I promise if I do experiment I won't do anything large and drastic and I'll take notes of where I put it to keep track. Thanks again guys.