As those of you that rode Barber this past weekend, as well as those that rode Road America at the beginning of June know, the Intermediate group seemed to be more problematic this season, at least from the perspective of my few track days. Perhaps a resurgence of riders with the economic recovery, I don't know why. But this past weekend at Barber, almost every I session was red flagged, and Felix had to struggle to try to get guys to settle down. At RA in June, Nick was compelled to run an entire no-passing session to get guys to chill out. I think this weekend I had my first track days when I didn't trust my fellow riders on the track. That's distracting. Nothing happened to me, but I also backed off from the packs of 3, 4, 5, 6 riders riding close together in what seemed to me to be a big hurry. There's a huge difference between riding fast and riding in a hurry. Granted my slow pace tends to bunch guys up behind me, but there was still a look of "hurry" as they passed and diced into the next turn. And a lot of them went down. I asked Trevor if they've ever considered breaking I group into subgroups, the way they do with Novice, and to stagger and control the riders a bit more. That's awfully difficult to pull off in I group, where most guys just want to practice at their own pace. Motovid split I group into two groups, but at the cost of running 15-minute sessions so they stay on an hourly schedule. That ruined it for me, I need those extra 5 minutes, so I rarely ride Motovid any more (that's at Blackhawk Farms Raceway, for those that haven't heard of it). Of course, the obvious solution is lower track density. When things had thinned out a bit on Sunday afternoon, we finally got two sessions without any red flags, and it was absolutely glorious. But it's a shame to have to wait through 12 (?) flagged sessions to finally reach a couple that are clean. I've always said I'd be happy to pay more to have fewer riders on the track. But a lot of folks can't afford a much more expensive track day and it's a shame to exclude folks from riding. So, solutions, anyone? And saying "people need to do this or that" doesn't solve anything. It has to be a STRUCTURAL solution applied to track days, not simply wishing riders were more courteous or rode better. My favorite solution so far is to go to four groups, splitting I into two, but keeping 20-minute sessions, because I think that is the minimum amount of time you need on track in a session to improve. Right now we're running 420 minutes of hot track, divided into seven sessions with three groups. I'd like to add an hour, if we could, to make it 480 minutes, divided into six sessions with four groups. It may sound like less track time, but when every session is red flagged, you're losing more than a total of 20 minutes track time over the day. It used to be that STT track days had few red flags in any group. That hasn't been the case this season in I group, at least for the days I've attended, so I wonder if something needs to be changed. My apologies if this has already been pounded into the ground on this forum, I tend to only read STT before/after STT track days, and I haven't had a chance to ride much this season. But it seems topical as we near the end of the 2013 season.
I partially agree with you. I too would like to see less red flags. I group is a mix. Some riders should be in novice until they learn to be smooth and predictable. Some riders should be in advanced. I is the worst group to ride in because of the mix. I don't think it's an easy fix. Even running two I groups doesn't solve the mix. I think the best solution is ride your own ride, and either move up or down.
Can anybody sign up to ride in "I" group? Or do you have to earn the bump to "I"? Used to be able to sign up for "I" and that was a huge part of the problem.
I've seen the same thing at days I've been at. The I group has the widest range of skill level and the biggest disparity of speed overall. You have guys who are just out of Novice, who have at least been through the Novice program, and guys who have just signed up in I without ever being on a track before. Others are running at or near the A pace, and it can easily turn into a CF when a guy without the skills tries to keep up with a near-A guy. I've seen I sessions where guys go 4 and 5 wide into T6 at ACC-N and into various corners at other tracks. When I see that I come through hot pit to get away from the cluster, and then go out again. If I can't find a safe space to ride in the session, I come in. It's a track day, it's not worth getting hurt for. This year Nick has ridden hard on the dangerous stuff in I. But every weekend there's some new fool out there trying to prove that they are the shit, without the skills to back it up. They crash, or worse, they take someone else out, the session is red-flagged, and we all sit. I am looking forward to gaining a little more pace so that I can get the bump to A and get away from the madness that is often seen in I. I had an opportunity to go out in some A sessions last outing and it was nice not to have to deal with the lack of protocols and skills on the part of other riders. I see the issues as being: - people not being cognizant or respectful of other riders out there. - people still riding completely over their heads - people starting to really get the hang of speed, and getting sucked into chasing a rider that is faster, and then getting into trouble. - people not understanding what a race line is, or how to ride one (or any "line" for that matter) i.e. not being smooth and predictable. - people not able to judge speed offsets and distance to other riders and getting into trouble. - people who actually are fast, and intentionally go out to "pass the group", regardless of the risk their actions present to others. Some of these issues can be dealt with by having more coaches riding herd in I, and the director having those who are creating unnecessary danger sit in the penalty box. Some of the problems can be dealt with by instruction, again with perhaps more coaches in I (assuming they aren't having to play cop). Other issues can only be fixed by the individual fixing themselves, taking on a different perspective and riding as part of a group rather than only caring about their own ride. It's an issue that has been around for a while. Another org dealt with it by holding riders in the novice/Beginner group until they could demonstrate that they can hold a line, make safe passes and ride with some awareness of and respect for other riders. It didn't make the problem go completely away, but it lowered the number of foolish, dangerous situations riders put themselves into. The 4 group model is great for those riders in the "upper I" group, but at the cost of session time as the sessions are shortened to make room for the 4th group. I'm not convinced that this is an optimal solution. I've tried to make it a point to talk in the paddock between sessions with other riders I see out there doing foolish stuff, not to be confrontational but to offer constructive tips to help them make better choices. Sometimes it's appreciated, sometimes they blow me off. But I think that if more of us in I made the effort to get to know the other I riders and also share what we've learned, it would make the group safer and less tolerant of the asshats who make I so dangerous. I don't think it's entirely up to the coaches and staff to fix the problem.
The issue with this weekend was two fold. 1. A sold out day with many typical "A" riders jumping in to Intermediate, and 2. A cold track with changing temps throughout the day. 1. You mix A riders and I riders and you will get a bigger mix than the usual speed spread. I felt like I was one of the quicker people in I, and had people come up to me after many different sessions telling me how smooth I was, and some even thanked me for giving them plenty of room on a pass. The whole weekend I only had one pass that was iffy, and it was from me assuming the riders in front of me would be predictable, but they weren't, and out of the four riders in that group, all of them did things that they hadn't done the previous 10 turns that I followed them, and it put me on a narrow entry to one, which I quickly got out of their way, pulled off on the runoff and waited for clear track. After that I parked it for a session to clear my head and dial it back. The issue is that many of the riders weren't predictable, and took lines that didn't make sense. I haven't been to Barber in 4 years, and the lines haven't changed, but luckily Barber has many lines to get through the turns, but unpredictable riders bunched in groups lead to "hasty" moves. 2. Cold track, cold tires, set your temps, track warms up, pressure increases to level outside normal. This happened to two different people I know this weekend. Set their pressure in the morning and by lunch couldn't maintain traction. One lowsided, without issues, no damage other than his pride. The other came in very uncomfortable. I think many people didn't check pressures again, which lead to too high of pressure in tires and caused accidents. It is very easy for this to happen. But I can say I do disagree with your comment about being in a "hurry". I group is a step over Novice. To be in Int, you should be confident on the track, you should know the line, and you should be 70% consistent and predictable (Int riders are still learning, so I can understand a few mistakes, but you should hold a predictable line, and if you deviate, you should hold your deviation and not whip back to where you "think" you need to be). You should be getting used to being passed, and should be prepared to be in a group with borderline A and borderline N riders. There is no real way to divide the group to get the N riders to stay in N, and the A riders to stay in A, and have a smooth I group on the "you pick the group you are in". I heard your comment during the riders meeting and I disagreed with the approach. We are in a controlled environment on the track, we are meant to go fast and we are meant to push ourselves, BUT, there is a fine line between pushing your "comfort" level, and being on the edge of loss of control. I think what you are saying is that there were many people in Int that were on the edge and uncontrolled, extremely unpredictable. Like I said before, I only had one moment all weekend that wasn't "smart" and I tried to pass too many unpredictable people when I should have done my typical thing and pitted in/out for some space, and I apologize for those 4 guys for doing what I did. I have done 54 track days in the past 5 years. Only three this year (including the Barber weekend in question), I rode at no more than 80%, I worked on body position, smooth brake/throttle control, and smooth consistent lines. I was asked to move to Advanced, but there was no room and in the future will ride A at Barber. But I think having an attitude of people being in a hurry isn't one to have for A or I. I think it's better to tell people to not ride on the edge, save some in reserve. I think with the A riders mixed with I riders, some of the I riders felt the need to chase some of the faster guys that were riding above their skill level, this mixed with "weird" track conditions, lead to some crashes. The key to bringing a bike home is to ride your own ride, ride no more than 90% at a track day, and keep aggression to a minimum. Int is always the "dangerous" group, some too fast, some too slow. Ego is in the mix because some people want to be the fastest in the session, with others saying "Novice is beneath me". But I also know that I paid for a track day, I will be riding at my 80-90% while there, but I will leave some in reserve. Smart riding will prevent accidents, including understanding the track conditions. The "int" debate will go on forever, but that is what the coaches and control riders are for, and you should talk to them about the riders that are out of control.
This. I had 6 people talk to me in the pits after a session, all positive, some thanking me for showing them a line that helped them be faster, some for giving someone a consistent and smooth line, others asking why I wasn't in A group. We are all at the track to learn, to improve. We should all be able to take some criticism as long as you aren't dishing it out like a hothead or know it all. If someone does something stupid, approach a coach to discuss it with them, if you have positive things to say, then say it. Coaches are there as staff, and are there to help with things like this.
finally this is brought up .. a few A guys admitted to me at acc north 8/4 that they signed up for I cause A was sold out .. thats like me tearing up N cause I is sold out .. thats not fair .. i think that may part of the problem as well as overconfident riders who go out first in I when they need to be middle or back pack .. an also on 8/4 in I at accN i noticed a few of the control riders racing eachother slicing and dicing I riders ... i think colored I stickers should be given based on the level of the I rider .. green if your a fast I rider on the verge of A, yellow if your mid pack, and Red for the guys that are fresh outa N or just have a few I days and are back pack .. then send them on the track in order of green yellow red with intervals in between .. and control riders do just that .. control the group, not race around with the other Cr's .. go ride fast in A when u are not on stt's clock as a CR .. i think there should be a green CR yellow CR and red CR and they trail their group to oversee and correct any problems within the group and riders who fall behind or ride ahead can be dropped to N, given a diff color sticker, or moved to A accordingly ... all this takes is producing diff color stickers and the cr's being cr's .. sounds like an easy solution that is worth a try to me my $0.02
Saturday at Barber was my first STT Int day. I have watched 4 others though while I was in N. I think that you guys are looking for a simple solution to a complex problem. Not trying to stir the pot or anything, but I do. As for the colored stickers, I don't think that will work for two reasons. The first is that it creates too much work for STT coaches. How do they know who is fast and who isn't before you ride. Second, riders fresh out of Novice won't all ways be back of the pack. I was first out and was actually scared that I would be in everyone's way. The group actually turned out to be a lot slower than I thought it would and I would say I was probably about mid pack to upper third give or take. That being said I always ask for help and instruction when at the track from the coaches, and they have always been awesome. I always work on my riding moreso than my speed, and have been told that I am getting to be pretty smooth and predictive. Am I saying I am a fast guy....heck no!! What I'm saying is that this is not an issue that STT can fix in my opinion. It is an issue with rider mindset. You can't structurally fix someone's mindset. You will always have the morons who come out thinking that they are God's gift to the sport, but that is part of it. You will always have the guys that ride over their head to prove that they are better than they are. As for the people that should not be in I because they are still at a Nov pace, STT is trying to fix that as now you have to get an eval. There are still those in the system who were members before this year's rule was put in place but in time they will either get up to speed or phase themselves out of the sport in some way. Not trying to say that nothing should be done, but I am trying to say that we can't really expect these guys that come out for the love of the sport and helping those of who CHOOSE to seek their council get better to turn track days into race schools. Just my .02
I have been riding with STT for five years, and intermediate for three, I attend all the Barber events, and overall they have been safe, some days their are a bunch of red flags, but others (9-28, 9-29) where their might have been one, maybe zero for the weekend. I agree intermediate is the most dangerous group to ride with because of the variation of skills. I road Sunday, it started out a bit crazy, part of it was just plain stupidity on some folks part, and other causes may be attributed to not having good tires. Some street tires don't hold up well in track conditions, I think allot of people think their tires will hold up fine, and they just won't. STT does a great job of placing strong a emphasis on safety, but some people just don't listen no matter how loudly you speak. in the end the riders must take responsibility for how they behave on the track. The old adage applies "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
the colored i stickers would be a self evaluated type deal .. and thats why coaches shadow so within the first session or two .. at least before lunch, the kinks are worked out and things are running smooth if someone is too fast or to slow for their color or the I group in general
Bottom line is it was the last event of the year for many. So they just wanna go "fast". Red flags are just a bi-product.
I sure that the STT staff has discussed this issue along with many others and I trust the structure/staffing of the groups. On the most basic level I think the unavoidable problem if there is one is attitude. Try and talk to most I riders about anything from anything from track tips to what they are having for lunch and expect the arms crossed 1000 yard stare of ignorance. The ones that listen are the ones that make it out.... SOOOOOO i've been drinking tonight
I agree with what most are saying. There are those that want to "hurry up and go," ego issues.... One thing that STT does have control over is maybe a stricter criteria for receiving a bump, with more constancy between instructors (I know that would be hard). Having said that, one thing keeps popping into my mind. Everyday, Nick would end the riders meeting with, "if you ever see a problem, tell someone. Either himself or the lead instructor." We could really blame ourselves if we aren't speaking up.
im not in I group, only novice. and i only have four track days under my belt. so why am i replying to an I group discussion? its because each day i get out there i gain confidence and i see myself one day going to I group. some suggest stickers and more cr's or split sessions while some just talked about smoothness and consistency. the basic skills im learning in N should propel me forward. if theres one thing i really take to heart in N sessions is that smooth and predictable =fast and presumably safe. i have heard the threat in the riders meeting every time about I guys getting bumped up or down for being stupid. does this really happen? i want to have fun and be safe on the track. if that means i stay in N for a long time then so be it (i will as im still midpack in N). while i wont offer a solution because i havent walked in the I group shoes, i will watch this phenomenom that is I group very closely. i dont think its a far stretch to say that the future of riding orgs like stt rely as much on their consistency and predictability as much as on the 'economy'. if stt starts becoming the free-for-all that i hear other orgs are then there may come a time when my dollars choose another org or sport. so i think (at leasst for my situation) that it is a heavy burden on the I group to carry to be the leaders in stt. if N riders dont want to advance because of the perceived or real foolishness in I group then stt could become just another implosion from the bottom up. to quote the great and mighty Trevor Sadler "just play nice" ok, the floor is back to you I guys and gals.
Valid point, I stayed in Novice for two years, road an under powered bike, my goal was to learn skills, build confidence, so when I decided to move up and get a more powerful bike I would have built a good solid foundation. Many people have ego issues, and for some reason won't ride in Novice, put your ego in a bag, place it on the curb outside the track, when you leave you can pick it up again. It is not just your safety at stake, but every one on the track. I have been told I could move up to Advanced because I am smooth and predictable, but until I can run consistent times in the mid 140's I will not move up, I am concerned about my safety and that of my fellow riders, my ego is in check, I will get their soon enough, no hurry. If riders would do a true self evaluation of their track skills I believe this would prevent some issues from happening on the track. Notice I said "track skills", street skills do not apply, the track is a whole new environment, and bad habits learned on the street, must be removed, and new skills have to be developed. Just because you may think you are Billy bad ass on the street does not mean you are worth a crap on the track.
I think it is all the things being discussed. Sometimes it's people skipping N altogether and riding in I without a solid foundation. Sometimes it is ego and people have to be perceived as "fast", so they ride beyond their own safe, sane limit because they think that's what "fast" riders do. Sometimes it's simply getting caught up in a moment and making a less than perfect decision. We've all probably been guilty of the occasional bad decision and hopefully with experience they become less frequent. If it were up to me I would make at least one day in N mandatory in STT. Unless I'm mistaken new customers can opt straight into I? I would also start a visible campaign of some sort. It may sound silly but people need positive, visual reminders. Humans respond to propaganda, which is why it exists. If STT views it as a problem perhaps they will choose to try something along those lines. Staff could wear t-shirts that praise the virtues of safe riding during the off the bike portions of the day. A "keep it sane, keep it safe" sticker could be handed out at tech along with the inspection sticker. Etc. Trevor and Nick do a fantastic job of setting the tone for the day at the Riders Meeting, but I believe even more could be done to establish the mindset that STT is the safe org. Make it clear with visual cues that this is the org that chooses to ride safe, and if you don't like it ride somewhere else. Make it a point of pride to ride in STT as a safe rider. It also occurs to me that there could possibly be a rewards policy, whereby every rider recieves a discount toward their purchase of their next event IF no red flags are thrown that day or that session, etc. You could even put a fun twist on it and say draw a session number from a hat at the end of the day and if there were no red flags that session then all the riders are eligible for the discount. Hmmm... Positive reinforcement. Of course I like the idea of a discount but I actually believe a full on visual campaign would be most effective in the long run.
Despite the crashes and red flags the current system works pretty well. I would love to see crashes become more expensive for the riders as sort of a crash penalty. Make them sit out 2 sessions to think about why they crashed or make them ride with a coach for a couple of sessions. Something like that might make people think twice about riding beyond their skill set.[/QUOTE] not sure about sitting out the sessions but could definitely see the need for having a red flag causing rider to ride with a CR for the next session or two. good idea. no track time is wasted and the crasher gets some needed schooling.