I was not at the event and don't coach at the big tracks but had a idea. Split the "I" group into sub groups at registration or the pit out. Each group has a coach to follow on the warm up lap. Send the groups out staggered and the coaches can keep it staggered for the first lap. May help with people bunching up a bit.
We do that. Actually we keep bikes behind us the first two laps the first session and then the next session don't allow passing till a lap is completed. There are several instructors at the line and we divide up the pack in "I" group
That is a good suggestion but is only applicable if STT is willing to reduce the amount of people who sign up. Like I have said on another forum...you either need excellent group "policing" or a very low turnout...one or the other. If there is a situation where neither is present, there will be disaster. I think that riding in the Advanced group should be earned. That is really the only way to ensure it is a true Advanced group that will be safe and enjoyable for everyone. From what I have gathered, a (if not THE) major problem was riders in Advanced who had no business being there. That will ALWAYS happen if riders are allowed to sign up in any group they want. You can get away without the Advanced group being awarded/earned IF there is a small turnout (i.e. open/private track days). I did a track day at Jennings last year with some buddies and there were only 2 groups (Novice/slow Int. and fast Int./Advanced). The pace varied greatly in both groups, but there were very few people on track so it was easily manageable and everyone had fun and IIRC, there wasn't a single red flag the entire weekend. So either Advanced spots should be awarded/earned...or the track needs to be fairly empty. A full track with true Advanced riders is fine. A non-crowded track with varying levels of riders is fine. A full track with varying levels of riders is a recipe for disaster.
Realize STT does not allow riders to bump down a session just because they feel they are owed more time on track. If this was allowed it was very unusual. no need to hash this out any more, I have officially taken you out of the large group of people who made bad decisions and bent the rules in order to make up for lost track time due to red flags. my mistake :wink:
"the large group of people who made bad decisions and bent the rules in order to make up for lost track time due to red flags"...??? What the hell does that mean? Stupid customers??
Will never happen IMO. Biggest problem in advanced mostly comes from events being sold out in Intermediate and someone buys an Advanced spot instead. It also happens just the opposite. A person will sign up for Novice or Intermediate if there is not a spot in Advanced. And that can be a recipe for disaster too. You take an advanced rider and put him in a slow group and we have someone who tries to pass and lap everyone in the group. Seen it a couple times this year. There are only so many track days a year and people(customers) try to find some way of going. The Advanced group seems to try and be a race with some folks. And that is not true at all. It is a track day not a race. There are rules set in place for all groups. In any group a rider is responsible for riding their own bike and making good decisions. An "A" rider is smart enough to know what is going on around them on the track and know that when a rider is in the group and not at the right skill level to give them room and use caution around them. You can't just go out there and go WFO and not pay attention to other riders on the track. Too many times egos should have been left at the house and riders should have came wanting to ride and just have fun. That is what a track day is all about. Now if a rider is acting crazy and doesn't belong in a group, it needs to be taken care of quickly so the danger is removed. I watched three or four guys at Barber in the Intermediate group practically race each other this year. They had the skill level to be in the group but their egos were too much. They were talked to and acted better for a few sessions. Sadly the talk didn't last and they all found pavement. Sometimes there is just nothing you can do in some situations. I even felt bad for them after they crashed but they were give fair warning. STT as a business tries to and goes to great lengths to make customers happy but some things can not be helped. We allow people to sign up in their choice of group while believing these people are honest and can make the right choice on their own. Does it always happen? No. But I think it is better than an awards system like other orgs do.
Someone already mentioned it before but I think the idea of showing credentials (racing license and/or are a coach with another club) in order to start off in "A" group is a good idea. And you can only get bumped up 1 level for the day. No going from Novice to Int. to Advanced in one day. Nor should you be able to go from Novice straight to Advanced without going to Int. first. (Not sure if this is or was ever an issue but I thought I'd bring it up anyway and nip a potential future issue in the bud).
No one is calling anyone stupid. I am saying there was a snow ball effect after people felt frustrated from missing track time. This frustration caused people to make bad decisions and mistakes. This is my opinion. People were clearly frustrated and lots of people made close calls, ran off of track and too often fell down, more then any other STT event that I have attended.
While the idea sounds good it won't work. I know a lot of fast people that neither race or coach and can ride better in "A" than some racers and coaches. Most of the people I see at every track event(the ones that go to a lot of events) know which group they should ride in and do so. Most of the riders I am talking about started in novice and moved themselves up after asking several people if they should. It is a small percentage that ends up in the wrong groups. And even though you guys are talking about this one track day in the big picture it is not a problem at most events. It sounds like it was just a bad weekend in general. I hate it when one of those come along.
But Jim, don't you think it would be better/safer for an advanced guy to start out for the day in Intermediate and bump up to Advanced upon evaluation rather than have a mediocre guy start off in Advanced and have to get bumped down to Intermediate? I mean, I understand that there are some fast people out there that are neither coach nor racer, and that they're probably faster than most coaches perhaps, and that they truly belong in "A" group. Well then....prove it. Show me how you ride, how controlled you are, etc....and you will be moved to Advanced. But in the meantime, sorry but "I" group is where you have to begin the day. Case in point...last week I did a trackday @ Pocono with TPM. Now as an STT Coach and licensed CCS racer I figured I could just name the group I wanted to ride in. "Sorry sir but you have to begin in Red group and if you want to go to Blue you have to be checked out by a CR." "But I'm a coach with STT." "Sorry but this is our policy." "But I'm a licensed racer." "Well in that case fax me your 2010 racing license and you'll be set for Blue group." I'm glad I spoke up but even if I didn't I just figured I'd run Red group for 1-or 2 sessions and eventually get bumped up. It would've been no big deal to me had I not mentioned the racing thing because I knew I was an advanced rider, I knew I could get bumped up early in the day, so what if I would had to wait until the second, third or even fourth session to get there. I would've got there eventually, properly, and most importantly safely and without incident.
Still sounds good but logistically would be a lot of work. Take Talladega for instance. Say you can have 25 riders in each class hypothetically. Ok you have had sign up online. All groups are full. How do you move anyone? Or are you proposing we only take riders at the event site? It would be a nightmare on the logistics side of it. Barber is sold out next weekend. I can't imagine a system like this working out. The track has been sold out for at least a month if not longer as are at least 80 percent of STT events. Don't hold me to that percentage. I think it is low but I don't know the figures
You guys forget that the last session before lunch had 3 bikes down and an unconscious rider lying on the side if the track. The bike was also smoking (idk if it was on fire) but fire and rescue rolled and were out there all through lunch. Probably yet another reason why we couldn't ride through lunch.
I'll say that simply having a race license is a poor criteria for placement in an Advanced group. Amount of race experience may be a better indicator, as would experience on that track.
But now you're back to the "failed" honor system. What's to keep some street rider from coming in and saying "yeah, I've been racing motorcycles for xxx amount of years."??
It's a catch twenty two. Pretty much the only safe bets are known riders, either previous customers, or others that could be vouched for. Otherwise they would need to be bumped from intermediate, or monitored in advanced sessions. In a nutshell, unless rider's experience could be vouched for, placement in advanced group should be done with caution. Easier said then done.
Time for some levity... [lame joke] We should throw a party to discuss this, but the Advance guys would probably crash it. :lol: [/lame joke] Damn Novice guys! Who let them in here. Brad the Novice
Still placing the emphasis on race and we are only doing a track day. If you race I am happy for you but a track day is not a race and does not get anyone a trophy at the end of the day. I have managed to read the thread on the WERA board and looked at all the STT hating as I knew there would be. Seems like if you want to find out where all the egos are at you can just look over there at some of their folks. The only thing I saw from what I have read with the track day was Advanced either had people who thought they could ride in A or the day started out poorly and it just had a ripple effect. Either way I don't see how anyone can determine if it was group placement or poor riding?