My post was addressing others that suggested that having a race license would be good criteria for placement in Advance group. I was not suggesting that only racers should be there, quite the opposite. I was suggesting that not all "racers" belong in an Advance group.
It is rather strange that we do not have this problem at Road America... a 4+ mile track... typically it doesn't happen at Barber which sells out every date and we don't see it at Autobahn Full course which is 3.7-miles in length... We've had two group days a well (LED's) for many, many years. Sometimes an event just starts of bad and goes downhill from there. If management misses the opportunity to correct the course it's going to be a tough day to manage. No one org in immune from it, it can happen at a half full day as well.
Well I am sure of one thing. If that is the way you see it then that should be good enough for anyone. No one knows their company better than the owner And a bunch of the other is usually the problem in these cases. And it is not always bad riders but the fact that even the good riders will make bad decisions once they get on the track. we are all capable of that
There were plenty of crashers in I group as well. I think it boils down to a big, fast track and end-of-season insanity. We used to see the same phenomenon at Motocross races...more injurys at the last event than the whole season combined. For all the complaints about the chicane, I saw no crashes there. (although I prefer not using it, as we did at a TPM Monti '66). One suggestion... It's better to pit in & out like we do for the North course, to easily get out of traffic when it bunches. Jim B GSXR 600 #99
Good point. You can get a race license while being several seconds "off pace". You can take a 250cc bike and earn a race license. While having a race license illustrates the ability to pilot a motorcycle, it doesnt not necessarily equal "advanced" riding. I haven't ridden with them in years, but IIRC NESBA only allows somebody to sign up in Advanced (without being bumped by a CR) if they hold an Expert race license. That is a much better gauge because you can't just "pass" something and get an Expert license, it has to be earned.
I feel real bad that I was the first 1 down for the day being only the 3rd lap of the day. Mainly due to the fear of oiling down the track and ruining the day. Many of you have read my post titled CRASH TRUCK. At least my dumb ass got out of the way and over the barrier. My crash was my fault, from a panic when I saw coolant spraying up. I still feel like maybe I set the tone for the day. I think we need more riders like me that care about others saftey. My biggest fear is always hurting someone else. I have ridden with other clubs at end of last season and it was the same way, everyone trying to prove what they did not already. I do hope all the riders will be ok. I got a AC sepration the doc told me good news today said I should be 80 percent within 2 weeks. See you all next season.
Hope you have a complete recovery and thanks for your post. Unfortunately it is not the American way to accept responsability for our own actions, but rather blame anyone/anything for our problems. Personally... I have NEVER had a crash in my life that wasn't my fault but that's just me.
here is a simple system that could be used to classify riders. everyone that is new to stt must start in the novice group. if it is your first event you must be in novice. to be in the advanced group you either need to be vouched for by a coach, show and EXPERT racing license (amature or novice will not get you in the advanced group until you have been reviewed by a coach(s) and bumped up one group at a time). or, if you are a long time stt member or another trackday org member that has been approved to be in a particular group (with a similar grading system; say you are advanced in xyz trackday org and you can prove it then you may start in the advanced group under probation). this would need to be implemented starting at the beginning of next season (as an example). any long time members that have at least (x) amount of days under their belt (say 15 minimum) can stay in the current group they have been signing up for but will be under probation (review by 2 or more coaches to see if they need to be bumped down or up). this simple system could easily be implemented without creating chaos.
even though i have ranted about how bad the day sucked,i have always offered suggestions to make it better. i have also stated that i dont entirely blame STT for it. i blame the riders first and foremost who made bad decisions (this does not include people who had mechanicals, etc... but is directed at people who selected a higher group than they should have been in, or just tried to ride over their head). my gripe with STT is that even though riders were causing the delays; the management to get things on track was lacking. the coaches should have done a more thorough job of picking people out of groups who didnt belong on the track (even one or two people per session would have made a huge difference in the quality of the tracktime for everyone), and we were left in the dark as to when our sessions were starting. other orgs use a PA system, and i know STT does not because they typically stick to the clock. but with how this day went sticking to the clock was useless. we would sit on the grid for no less than 10 minutes and as much as 20 sometimes. these are issues that were the responsibility of STT to handle and it seemed as if these issues were not being addressed properly. im hoping that there will be some serious thought and discussions with stt management prior to next season on how to address days like this. basically stt needs to have an "oh shit" plan of action.
The "issue" isn't just at larger tracks, it is at every track. I have always thought (and advocated) that STT is by far the best organization available for new riders. You simply cannot beat the on and off track instruction a Novice rider receives with STT. But anybody who has been around tracks or forums has heard "STT is great for beginners...but NESBA is faster overall and structured/geared more towards the faster riders". I heard that before i ever got on a track (that is why i started riding with STT, i wanted the instruction in the beginning). STT loses many riders due to the fact that anyone can sign up in Advanced. Just about every thread on track days/groups etc on the WERA forum will have at least 1 person saying "i stopped riding with STT and started riding with ____ because the Advanced group is faster/better/safer". I know it takes some work and organization, but it CAN be done and done successfully. NESBA, TPM and i believe X-ACT all have structured Advanced groups that require either an Expert race license or a bump by at least 2 CR's. From a business standpoint, can you imagine how incredible it would be if STT was the best of both worlds? Imagine how many people STT would appeal to if the excellent Novice program was combined with a structured Advanced group that appealed to more racers/fast track day guys. Just a thought....
Making all riders who are new with stt sign up for novice then get get bumped out might create an undue burden on the novice program. This might work with other clubs but our novice program is way too structured to have 10 extra guys who may belong in Intermediate or Advanced. In my opinion any riders of unknown skill need to sign up no higher then Intermediate. Then coaches will use the first few sessions to evaluate up or down. Since Intermediate is the first group of the day I think we could quickly get people into the correct groups.
Agreed...the novice program is not the place to assess riders. The program is, by design and execution, for riders that are new to track days, new to a given track and uncertain of where they would fit in, and interested in improving their basic skills in a safe and predictable environment. Introducing riders who want to 'prove they should be in a higher group' would create a nightmare for everyone. There may be a way, through a gross cut survey, to allow riders to sign up for intermediate. > 5 years experience on the street > than 5k miles on current bike > 4 track days > 1 track day on THE TRACK OF THE DAY > .... And by the way, I question the whole fast = advanced discussion I know plenty of riders who are VERY advanced. But they choose to demonstrate and enhance their skill on 125 2 strokes...or 75 hp 2 valve air cooled Ducs. They are safe, predictable, consistant, and will smoke a bunch of 'advanced' folks in the corners. I do not think (could be wrong here) that STT has designed their track day advance groups to be practice sessions for Racers. The above is an opinion...not to be confused with fact...
I agree with the bold. For the intermediate suggestion to work you would have to have more instructors in the group to determine the skill level of the riders. We already have several instructors in the Novice program so that would add more staff to what is already allowed on the track. I just don't know. There are some good suggestions but the people who handle the logistics of an event would know more about what could be done