jimbo, good ideas as well. looks like more people would have to sign up with either novice or int. if they have no credentials to be in advanced. and that does mean more coaches in that group to police/coach/assist riders. it also means that if there are say (4) more coaches, that is 4 less spots sold which does effect the bottom line of STT's wallet. that also means that in some cases the ADV. group might not sell out which is also a $ issue. but, i think it might be a short term loss for long term customer satisfaction and return rate. when days run smoother and better the customer return rate in the long run would offset the short term loss of selling 10-20 less spots on a day (just for an example).
For safety concernes and for the purpose of the Advanced group, fast does matter (fast as in lap times). People keep throwing out the "this isn't racing", "this isn't a racer practice" etc type comments. WE KNOW THAT. Nobody said it was a race or even a racer practice (although in the morning meetings it is usually stated that the Advanced group is primarily made up of racers). The biggest difference between racing and track days isn't necessarily the lap times...it is the passing. I run close to the same pace at track days but I am MUCH more aggressive with passing at races. Just because "it isn't a race" doesn't mean people aren't running hard and running fast. Regardless of how you want to label the group, in order for it to be a safe, consistent, smooth group...fast DOES matter. People disregarding that fact has led to issues before (and part of the reason why STT loses members). Too many times we hear/see people say "he has a ton of experience, runs good lines and is very smooth...he should be in Advanced". While all of those attributes are very commendable, they don't necessarily mean somebody needs to be in Advanced. Take Barber for example. Somebody can be on a bike they have been riding for 10 years, know Barber like the back of their hand, have 20+ track days and be smooth as butter...all while running 1:50 lap times. While that person is a good rider, they do not need to be in Advanced. The example you gave was perfect. Those people do not need to be in Advanced if their bikes will not let them do the appropriate lap times. Not because they aren't good riders, but because their bikes will result in them running several seconds off of a true Advanced pace (im making assumptions, I have never ridden any of the bikes you mentioned). As a matter of fact, STT doesn't allow Ninja 250's in Advanced simply because of the limitations of the bike. I know of Expert racers with years of track/race experience on 250's...and they ride in Intermediate simply because their 250 won't let them do the kinds of lap times needed for Advanced. I know everyone says "lap times don't matter...just go have fun...don't even turn your timer on". But when talking about group placement, lap times DO matter. Obviously you don't want somebody riding way over their head just to hit a number on a clock, but you know what i mean.
Negative Ghostrider He says and I quote "Advanced is made up of racers, ex racers and seasoned track riders like himself." I have only heard it about 100 times As far as times we had a lady run in Advanced last Barber. Her lap times were 1.50 yet no one complained about it whatsoever. And she was allowed in there by management because we had worked with her all year. I was placed with her in Intermediate the day before to see if she was ready for the jump up. Now if she had been riding "over her head" it would have been a different story but she wasn't. Her lines were spot on and everyone we spoke to had no issue with her being out there. She had better body position and ran better lines than some of the other A riders. Speed is not always the factor. Good judgement and understanding the track play a big role in being in advanced
Agreed. Having all new riders sign up in Novice will not only create a lot of extra work/headache for the Staff but will also result in a lot of aggravated riders. I also agree that unknown riders shouldn't sign up higher than Int. If you have an Expert race license or get bumped by 2 CR's, then move to Advanced and from then on, you can sign up in Advanced. If not, you can't. Of course if STT decides to make a change for next year, there will have to be some kind of "grandfather" thing for people who have been riding in Advanced already. Maybe something like "Expert race license or a minimum of 5 previous weekends riding in Advanced".
Oh and you run nowhere near the same laptimes at a track day as you do a race LOL You are looking for a cheeseburger halfway around Barber
I knew it was something like that, been a while since i heard it. The lap times will vary by how many people are there and how fast the group is as a whole. I used 1:50 as an example. If the group as a whole is running 1:40's-1:50's, then it isn't a problem at all. If the group is running 1:30's-1:40's then somebody running a 1:50 mixed in there can be very dangerous. Not that the rider is dangerous, but the difference in speed is dangerous (especially at a track like Barber with all the blind entrances). I know lap times isn't the "end all" solution, but it is a good place to start. JenningsGP breaks down their groups like this: >1:32 = Novice 1:28-1:32 = Intermediate <1:28 = Advanced. ...and it works. While 1:28 isn't necessarily a "fast" lap time, it is fast enough that the closing speeds, lines, etc won't be that much different than the rest of the group.
Eh, I guess you are right. :lol: I have been trying to get out of that bad habit and practice harder though.
I think the 1.50 was a good example for Barber. While she ran that time and rode well you could easily take someone else with the same time and think they don't need to be there. Anytime you are at Barber with STT someone is running in the 1.34 range. We very seldom have any issue with rider placement at Barber and usually if someone is where they shouldn't be the customer generally wants to move before anyone has to say something. There are plenty of times customers have asked to be moved to a lower group. Most people figure that out after the first session. The issues in this thread are not issues we have most of the time. Most riders we have know where the slower riders in A are and make the adjustments needed. It is not much of a problem for us
The problem is that MMC isn't a "racetrack" so how would anyone know what laps times are when no races are held there. Should everyone go out and spend a couple hundred dollars on lap timers so we know what group to put them in? No. I'm on a Sv650 should I not be allowed in ADV because its not a fast enough bike in a straight line? There is no 1 solution. It all boils down to personal responsibility. Pick your proper group, don't ride like an ass. And no, the unconscious rider was before lunch. After the oil spill in the esses (also ADV group) and i ran the whole 15 min ADV session after lunch without a red flag.
I also wanted to address the concerns about the bus stop. I personally REALLY like it. I know some thought there was some bunching up in there but in reality it was better to happen there. There was run off and it meant you guys weren't flying into "montis revenge" at 170+. Just my .02
My .02 is if "It all boils down to personal responsibility. Pick your proper group, don't ride like an ass." Why is it dictated to run the chicane? Choose one or the other. Either dictate everything or allow personal responsibility (such as braking at the end of a long straight).
I've been doing Trackdays for 12 years. Monday wouldn't make my worst 10 list if I kept track of such Sh!t. I think we should start planning for the party where the discussions on doing a better job in the future take place. How many spots should we leave open for the advanced guys who plan on crashing. How do we determine who is a legitimate advanced crasher as opposed to a wanna be intermediate crasher with delusions of grandeur. How Should novice racers that placed in the top 3 spots in a National rate. Can they crash? Even if they aren't currently riding in advanced? Nevermind Jeff
I like it x 2, even though I'm not in advanced yet. With other org's you can only sign up for group your assigned to, the computer will not let you change. I think you should have to prove you can ride in your group, there are guys in I group that dont even know what a race line is. I have seen it.
Yes they can. :lol: Although unlike Monte, I have crashed when it wasn't my fault. My 2 worst crashes (one in a race, one in a track day) happened when somebody laid their bike down and the sliding bike took me out as i was passing them on the outside. Obviously i have crashed when it was my fault (tucked the front twice, one of which was in the rain). Im just saying that not every crash is in your control. Shit happens in every group. From what i gather, people crashing isn't necessarily the main gripe. People being in the wrong group is the main complaint (which is why the main discussion is how to eliminate people from being in Advanced that shouldnt be there...although the same arguement can be made for Intermediate also).
I like the thought of 'earning' a spot in Advanced, via bump from an STT coach. I do think a first timer should be allowed to pick Novice or Intermediate though. Most of this bitching stems from the realization that this was the last track day of '10 for most of us. It's a depressing thought, makes us want to fight. Like the biatches on The View.